BSA C10 C11 C12

Technical => Technical => Topic started by: Owen on January 13, 2016, 06:10:55 PM

Title: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on January 13, 2016, 06:10:55 PM
I have started this for the technical restoration of my 1945 C11.

The saddle on the bike has the marking 'WILBECK' on the rear.
The parts book for 1946 says the saddle should be a H, Terry & Sons Ltd model S874. Is this the same thing or a different saddle and are the brackets below the saddle for a brick shape saddle?

Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on January 13, 2016, 08:12:18 PM
Owen I've never heard of Wilbeck saddles, only Wilbeck furniture. Maybe in days gone they would undertake to re-upholster a saddle and then put their logo on it. Terry's is a well known spring and saddle maker. Possibly  your valve springs and fork spring are also Terry's?

That other bracket certainly looks like the remains of a pillion seat, but not a 'Bum Pad' type, as I'm sure there are the remains of coil springs. A pillion seat would have been an optional or after-market extra.  Ron

Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: isleofmanpaul on January 13, 2016, 10:22:01 PM
Spot on Ron re the pillion seat, got one on my Vello
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: timsdad on January 14, 2016, 07:18:36 AM
I also think that Wilbeck is the company who re-upholstered the seat. As I understand things, Dunlop were planned as the saddle suppliers in the parts lists for the early Cs but, due to the war time rubber shortage, Terry's then supplied the factory with their felt and canvas covered saddles. If you post a picture of the underside, Owen, Terry's spring arrangement is easily identified with its D shaped link for the springs at the nose end. Leighton's made a very good job of recovering mine, complete with a new Terry's plate rivetted to the back.


I was interested to see the additional bracket on your mudguard because my Real C12 had one exactly like it. I had no idea what it was for and assumed, also, that it was something left over from an after-market seat or possibly as an alternative mounting for the voltage regulator if a dual seat had been fitted sometime. As yours is the same as mine, Owen, then it seems like it was a factory part but there's nothing like it in my 1940 parts list.

Ray
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on January 14, 2016, 08:06:19 AM
It would probably have been this type of after market pillion saddle which I think is 'Lycette'.  Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Lilyloodles on January 14, 2016, 08:39:24 AM
Hi,

My '45 has a Terry saddle. The two bolts below in picture attached are for regulator box. Keep up the good work Owen as I'm just about to also start my restoration.

thanks

Tony
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: timsdad on January 14, 2016, 03:57:17 PM
Yep, that's the front bracket, Ron, so my old bike had a Lycett pillion seat on it at one time. It also had a set of nice old period pillion footrests fitted so I knew it once had a back seat of some description.

Ray
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on January 14, 2016, 07:10:18 PM
Here is some more pictures of the saddle.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: timsdad on January 15, 2016, 06:44:49 AM
It looks like Terry metalwork from the top, Owen, but underneath the front the springs should hook onto a D shaped link so they're all sort of jointed together - that can float about a bit if my memory is still half working.

Ray
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on January 15, 2016, 09:05:54 AM
More info.  Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Biker Grandad on January 15, 2016, 11:07:44 AM
Hi Owen. There is a man in Eastleigh that's  re upholstered, the seat he is good he has done two for me good price. Bob.
                  PS.I
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Biker Grandad on January 15, 2016, 11:12:17 AM
PS I hope to see you Saturday afternoon if you are in Bob.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: maroon1953 on January 15, 2016, 05:11:43 PM
Hi Owen,

Has your other C bike (a 1953 maroon one?) visuable at the one photo also a saddle? If it had one it should be the same.

Michael
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on January 17, 2016, 01:28:17 PM
Unfortunately the rear cover of the seat split as I was investigating the frame so may not be able to reuse the original cover.

Hi Michael,

Both my 53's have dual seats
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: maroon1953 on January 17, 2016, 04:54:03 PM
My 1953R  C11 has an original saddle, but still without cover (the small type Bantam cover is too small, I will try Armour´s - there is a slightly bigger one in his catalogue).

If you want, I will make a photo from the saddle frame. There are some details of a different shape.

Michael
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on January 17, 2016, 08:23:39 PM
Yes please Michael.

I popped the rocker cover and despite 50 years in the garage. Its like it had been run yesterday.
Unfortunately the rocker cover is cracked. The breathers have been removed and blocked off.
I know its the wrong rear light (should be a MT211) but I may keep it as its part of the history of the bike.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: camman3 on January 18, 2016, 11:25:07 AM
Those valve clearance adjusters look like theg have never had a spanner on them........if they have, it was the right size ;)
Have you decided what level/style of restoration you are going for Owen?
There are a few "patinated" bits in my garage, that Norman left with me to donate, if they of any use to you.....not much left now though. Bring your tea bag and have a look.
Graham
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: maroon1953 on January 18, 2016, 12:59:54 PM
Hi,

may be the oil plug also like new!!??
The engine looks very black inside the rockerbox?

Owen, I have just made photos of the saddle.

I hope it will work this time to send it.

Michael

It does not work. the photos have around 1,25MB; is this too big to send?
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Lilyloodles on January 18, 2016, 01:23:23 PM
Hi Owen,

it would seem that I was wrong as to the manufacturer of the saddle on my '45 C11.
After looking at all the Terry saddle photos uploaded I realise that mine has a completely different spring configuration. I will photograph mine tonight and upload photo for you as it's currently off of the bike. Perhaps mine is also Wilbech type, who knows!

Tony
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: camman3 on January 18, 2016, 02:52:04 PM
Hi,

may be the oil plug also like new!!??
The engine looks very black inside the rockerbox?

Owen, I have just made photos of the saddle.

I hope it will work this time to send it.

Michael

It does not work. the photos have around 1,25MB; is this too big to send?

You can post up to four pictures per post, with maximum individual size of 4000KB Micheal. I find it best to reduce picture size to around 2000KB and save in separate folder.

Owen, I will send you pictures to your email address......just noticed there is a pair of c11g push rods in there, which somebody was after a while ago ???
As said, not a lot there, and nearly all c12

Graham
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: maroon1953 on January 18, 2016, 04:48:48 PM
Hi,
I have tried to reduce the pitures. There is no good program on this computer.
I hope it works.

Michael
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Lilyloodles on January 19, 2016, 08:25:02 AM
Here is the saddle from my '45 C11, hope this helps although as said before I don't think this is a Terry product. Saddle appears to be original though.

Tony
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: seetwelve on January 19, 2016, 09:07:52 AM
The spring pattern is very unusual Tony.  It looks like a hotch-potch of what was available on the work bench.  The curved springs surely cannot function correctly.

Em
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on January 19, 2016, 09:16:00 AM
Yes the springs are just a collection of wrong size springs made to do the job. The  cross over springs are there to tighten up the slack ones and the idea to join short springs with a key ring is novel.  :) Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on January 20, 2016, 06:26:32 PM
Finally got the seat cover off and found this spring configuration.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on January 20, 2016, 07:18:25 PM
It looks typically 'TERRY'S' to me. Just spray some WD40 on it to preserve the history and patina ;D ;D ;D

Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: isleofmanpaul on January 20, 2016, 08:32:05 PM
Steady Ron , thought you were not one for retaining the "original patina"  ;D
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: camman3 on January 20, 2016, 09:09:06 PM
Triggers broom comes to mind :D
I suppose the question is ....If you manage to retain just the frame, then fit new springs and cover, is it more "original" than a new replica replacement  :-\
Either way, I am not going to wind Owen up.....as he may be in charge of medical equipment used for my survival in the not too distant future  ;D ;D
Graham
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on January 20, 2016, 09:31:32 PM
Steady Ron , thought you were not one for retaining the "original patina"  ;D

You probably guessed it was tongue in cheek! ;) Owen knows it's just banter, "but it's all done in the best possible taste darlings"  Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: timsdad on January 21, 2016, 06:44:23 AM
Yes, I'm sure, too, that's a Terry's seat and not much worse than mine was.

I stripped mine and blasted all the separate metalwork bits, powder-coated the frame work and painted the springs with aerosol. After re-assembly, I sent it to Leighton's who made an excellent job of covering it and riveted a new, replica 'Terry' badge on the back.

This was a few years ago, but since I started messing around on this site, and it cost between forty and fifty quid inc. p & p. I think it's original as most of its constituent parts were made in Birmingham and nothing was made overseas.

Ray
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: maroon1953 on January 21, 2016, 07:56:01 AM
I think the front fixing of the saddle is not original.
What is the reason, someone made this modification?

Are the saddle springs the right lenght?

Michael
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on January 21, 2016, 08:48:54 AM
I don't know why you think it's not original Michael? Owen's saddle looks just like the 'STANDARD' saddle in the Terry's brochure that I posted in reply #9 in this thread. Of course, BSA would then have added their own front bracket if they hadn't already arranged that with Terry's.

It looks as if his springs have lost their springiness and stretched beyond usefulness. Again a quick squirt with WD40 will fix this :D :D :D

Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: hampshirebiker on January 21, 2016, 09:44:55 AM
Get a couple of gallons of WD40 & fix the whole bike.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: chaterlea25 on January 21, 2016, 12:36:06 PM
Quote
Get a couple of gallons of WD40 & fix the whole bike.

+ a couple of rolls of gaffer tape ::) ::)
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on January 21, 2016, 12:56:10 PM
Well last night I slackned off the girder fork friction brake and the forks went up and down. So just the other 99% to get her on the road.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: timsdad on January 21, 2016, 04:40:57 PM
I think it's the original Terry's saddle but a previous owner has added a pair of flat steel links to lift the front end up. It was likely done to give a bit more distance between the seat and footrests so the lanky lad had a more comfortable riding position. The seats would have been tailor-made for BSA so the factory wouldn't have needed to modify them.

All part of the bike's history and the seat can easily be put back in its proper position.

Ray
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Pete on January 21, 2016, 07:18:25 PM
I agree with Ray, and probably the rear springs were jacked up in some way as well? Can't wait to get onto the exhaust system :-)
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Tman on January 21, 2016, 07:23:04 PM
Quote
Get a couple of gallons of WD40 & fix the whole bike.

+ a couple of rolls of gaffer tape ::) ::)

For Americans, JB Weld. It must be good stuff the amount of recommendations it gets!
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on January 21, 2016, 07:36:27 PM
So that would explain the spacers on the rear of the seat!
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on January 21, 2016, 08:27:11 PM
Yes I see it all now. The additional strips to the front bracket and now these rear pillars! Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: timsdad on January 22, 2016, 06:26:34 AM
The rivets are original and there appears to be the right number of them!

Ray
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on January 31, 2016, 02:30:25 PM
I managed some more investigations today.
The exhaust is a little rusty and has a bit of a hole in the end (not the outlet). Cosmic eat your rust out!!
 

Not quite sure why the wire is round the gearbox clutch lever?
(http://)
Mind you the primary drive is starting to look good
(http://)
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on January 31, 2016, 02:42:00 PM
I don't think I can get away with the rear tyre. I think it's way under the limit
(http://).


Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: camman3 on January 31, 2016, 03:45:10 PM
You'll get another dozen runs down Santapod drag strip with those tyres Owen ;)

Talking about rust, In Excess, my favourite shop, are doing GT85 (same as WD40, but some say better) in 1litre hand pumped container (refillable), for £2.90

When are you coming down for Normans parts that you reserved?......I'll supply the tea if you bring chocolate hobnobs.
Graham
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on January 31, 2016, 04:23:25 PM
Can you get me 4 of the GT85 1L bottles if your passing please and I'll bring the Hob knobs soon!!!
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: camman3 on January 31, 2016, 06:55:32 PM
They also have loads of aluminium tube, box section, angle, etc at very cheap prices, and open 7 days a week :).....no Hobnobs though.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on January 31, 2016, 07:40:39 PM
I bought a tin of that GT85 once and sprayed inside the dizzy of a transit, just like I've always done with WD40. But nothing worked until I'd cleaned it all away with thinners. Apparently it contains 'Teflon' which is a bloody good insulator.  Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: hampshirebiker on January 31, 2016, 08:08:27 PM
Thanks for the heads up Ron.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on February 07, 2016, 01:59:34 PM
Finally some good dry weather to get down to the restoration.

After days of spraying loads of penetrating oil on the fitting. I finally managed to disassemble the throttle (Twist Grip) once I had worked out how to get it apart. Luckily the assembly was full of oil & grease so not too much adjusting needed.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: hampshirebiker on February 07, 2016, 02:40:19 PM
FRom the first picture, I thought it was an air rifle.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on February 07, 2016, 02:47:15 PM
Unfortunately the head light is a little rusty at the bottom.(http://)
Mind you the reflector looks ok.

Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on February 07, 2016, 03:11:55 PM
Owen, my best advice to you, is to buy a nice chrome throttle twist grip from 'Brit Bits' and drop all the pieces of that internal pull twist grip into a jiffy bag and put my address on it :-*  Ron

PS I just had Terry Roberts from 'Metal Magic' here. Let me know if you need his number or works address. He's not a million miles away....Near Blackbush. Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: ianinglis on February 07, 2016, 04:12:36 PM
surely you could rescue the headlight bowl with some fibreglass matting and resin???
i guess it depends on what sort of finish you are looking for??


ian
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on February 07, 2016, 07:28:05 PM
Nice try Ron. I find it interesting how it works although I'm not sure how I can replace the cable as the end block has a plug pressed into it. I might have to remake the plug or solder the cable in place.

Luckily I have a spare MU42 headlight shell that I can modify to the correct rim securing clip. However if it's as secure as Indian Tim's headlight i'll use the later clip.


Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on February 07, 2016, 08:27:26 PM
You can get all the parts separately from Peter Long. Click on Blue Star/Empire Star (Frame)

http://www.cornucopia-enterprises.de/spares-bsa_pre.html (http://www.cornucopia-enterprises.de/spares-bsa_pre.html)

Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on February 07, 2016, 08:56:27 PM
Ouch £185 for the throttle bits. Lucky mine are only a bit rusty!!!!
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on February 07, 2016, 10:05:21 PM
Yes my experimental project needs one and the one I have is not complete, but at least you can buy the parts separately. Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Lilyloodles on February 08, 2016, 09:36:33 AM
yes but Cornucopia don't sell the actual throttle cable, only the block & tackle parts. I've the same problem on my '45 C11 Owen. I was tempted to 'modernise' the twist grip  but I'd rather stay with the original set up even though I'll have to make a cable up.

Tony
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on February 08, 2016, 11:15:51 AM
Well both my 39 C10 and Enfield WD/D have those twist grips. My Enfield still has an original cable but the C10 has a new one. Therefore I must have bought it from 'JJ Cables' Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on February 08, 2016, 12:34:47 PM
I notice my rotating sleve has a thin cover which hides the angled slots. However the Cornucopia one does not show this outer sleve!

I enquired about a replacement speedo as mine is a little worse for wear. Chronometrics offered an outright purchase for £350 and an exchange at £150. I did ask if he could supply one that had not been made to look better than it had come out of the factory e.g. concourse condition. Luckily I have some bits and pieces of speedo that I can use to exchange which will save me a couple of hundred quid and he will also put it in a case that has a little age to it. ;D
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: timsdad on February 08, 2016, 01:59:54 PM
It might be worth giving Ian Bartam a ring, Owen, on 01502 476612. He only does chronometrics and he may not be quite as stingy.

Ray
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on February 08, 2016, 02:18:59 PM
I notice my rotating sleve has a thin cover which hides the angled slots. However the Cornucopia one does not show this outer sleve!

Yes when I bought some parts for one of my twist grips from Cornucopia, he sent me an outer sleeve, which was basically just a piece of brass shim stock which you roll round the outside of the other gubbins. Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Lilyloodles on February 08, 2016, 03:49:06 PM
Damn......I'm missing that 'shim' as well! Can this be easily made or not?
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on February 08, 2016, 04:23:39 PM
I can't get to it now to measure, but I guess it's 15-20 thou thick brass shim stock. I've got some assorted shim stock " in a can" But I can't seem to find it by google, although there's loads on there. Maybe someone can point you to it.  You should be able to cut it to size with scissors.  Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on February 08, 2016, 04:57:15 PM
Mine is steel as it's rusted to the inner sleeve. It has two holes where it has been soldered/welded to the inner sleeve.

Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Lilyloodles on February 09, 2016, 11:52:34 AM
thanks for that Ron, I'll see what I can put together and let everyone know with some photos. Interesting seeing Owen's original one using a fixed steel sheaf (which is bound to rust over a period). i think brass would be far more suitable or maybe a very thin plastic!

Tony
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on February 13, 2016, 03:27:51 PM
I've been looking at my Lucas info (1936-57) in regards to the electrics on the bike. The headlamp I have is a 1939 type DU42 with a flat diffuser lens and bulb holder that detaches from the reflector and not the MU42 as the book says. I'm not sure if it should have the pin type rim locking mechanism or a under slung clip?
The Lucas info says the horn push for 1939 to 55 should be a HP26 which screws into the front brake mount. Mine is a model 4 which mounts on part of the front brake lever clamp.
The Lucas dip switch Info is correct with a model 9 again mounted on the clutch lever clamp ring.
Lighting and ignition Lucas says should be a PLC 5 with the blade ignition key. However I have a PLC 2 type used on small Enfield 's from 1936 to 37.
Rear light should be a MT210 but mine has the later 529 model. I am probably going to keep that one as I don't like the cheap repo MT211's.


Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on February 14, 2016, 12:08:23 PM
A cold but dry day so more work on the 45 C. Managed to get the petrol tank cap off today after a few weeks soaking. I thought it would be completely rusty inside after 50ish years at rest. But no, it looks like the gods are with me (for a change).
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on February 14, 2016, 01:45:12 PM
 At least you haven't got any paintwork to protect yet Owen. The Gods have sent their agent 'Ethanol' down to plague me again. Just been working on my Triumph 3SW and look what has happened to the 'Petseal' tank liner!
The tank is currently wrapped in several layers of news paper and cling film and sat with a litre of tank liner removal solvent inside it. I'll see what it looks like once I've rinsed it out tomorrow. Ron
 
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on February 14, 2016, 03:05:17 PM
Ive stuck some Enginewise V2K oil into the tank to stop the rust getting in. My C10 tank is starting to suffer the same Ron. I'll give it an internal strip in the summer.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on February 14, 2016, 09:19:13 PM
I've been looking at a pillion saddle for the bike and wondered if any of these would have been the original

Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on February 18, 2016, 08:29:38 PM
I forgot about the Feridax front screen I got with the bike. a little clean and all will be well.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: ianinglis on February 20, 2016, 01:46:11 PM
thats going to knock about 10mph off ;D ;D ;D


ian
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: camman3 on February 20, 2016, 04:32:19 PM
With the wind behind, it may put 10mph on it ;D
I took the Avon fairing off my Enfield, riding near the windy Christchurch coast, it sometimes took me in directions I wasn't steering :o
Graham
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Dstep on February 20, 2016, 08:29:13 PM
Don't know if this is of any help, but these are the photos of my "original condition" '52 C11 seat and pillion. The seat is a Terry and the pillion is a Lycette.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Dstep on February 20, 2016, 08:31:21 PM
Here is the rest.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on March 02, 2016, 09:14:43 PM
Well had a phone call from Russell at Chronometrics today and he has made me a speedo from the bits I had collected (not the rust pile). He even managed to use a NOS case, dial and hands t give it a patina that will suite the bike. Rather than the over restored 'better than it left the factory' look.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on March 02, 2016, 10:25:56 PM
So I'm now looking for a replacement ammeter. Can anyone identify the make/model in the pic below? Yes I know the Lucas info says a CZU27 red dot model. However I like the look of what's on the bike already. Albeit a working one.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: timsdad on March 03, 2016, 07:19:36 AM
As already mentioned, Ian Bartram restores ammeters as well as chronometric instruments.

Ray
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: hampshirebiker on March 03, 2016, 08:08:29 AM
Is that the nice bloke in the tatty shed near Ash level crossing?
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: timsdad on March 04, 2016, 08:28:04 AM
No, he's worked for many years in a converted garage at his father's place at Barnby, near Beccles, in Suffolk.

Good bloke - 01502 476612

Ray
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on March 04, 2016, 12:28:26 PM
Go home last night and waiting for me was a second hand DU42 headlight shell I got off Flebay. I think its a bargain at $24.99 (£17.65) including postage from Israel. Just need to fill in a couple of holes and sorted.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: BSAussie on March 05, 2016, 04:44:22 AM
I've been reading with great interest the banter around this post and the intense discussion about seats! So I thought I would look at the one that came with my 1946 C10. It looks like the one in maroon1953's post except I think it's been repaired at the front with fencing wire( Australia's answer to WD40). This repair was probably necessary due to the bigger gonads encountered 'down under'!
On a serious note, is the seat original. It's been recovered at some stage
Cheers
Paul
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: hampshirebiker on March 05, 2016, 08:24:08 AM
Gonads indeed. I thought you blokes called them the crown jewels (Kevin's trapped testicle).
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on March 05, 2016, 08:32:19 AM
From what I have found out it is original. Does/Did your bike have a pillion seat? if so can you post some pictures.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: BSAussie on March 05, 2016, 09:52:19 PM
Great, so it's worth restoring then. Bike didn't come with a pillion seat.

Yes, hamshirebiker, some have Crown Jewels, others knackers, some goolies  or agates. It depends on the model and the year    :)
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on March 09, 2016, 04:41:46 PM
Well I made a bid on a pillion seat and won it. Looks good on the bike and lines up with the holes in the mudguard. I like it's used condition as it will not stand out (too much). Just need to put a rib in the rear bracket for the rib in the mudguard.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on March 15, 2016, 08:42:10 PM
Well I got down and dirty today removing the engine from the frame. Luckily Most of the engine oil had found its way into the sump. There was even some in the oil tank. Unfortunately I had to drill out the front frame to engine plate bolt head as it was seized in the frame.
I also managed to get the barrel and head off the engine. The bore is only 63.5 and doesn't look to bad so may get away with a hone and new rings. Can't separate the head and barrel at the moment. three of the head nuts are seized solid despite my daily spraying of penetrating oil.
I Have not been able to get into the timing chest yet as there are few stubborn screws in the way.
I found the primary drive easy to get off as most of the locking tabs and nuts are not fitted correctly and the clutch is not too bad considering the 48 year rest.
One problem is the source of gasket material. Does anyone know which bakery the Doncaster Toasting bread is is from?
On the 53 C's with the 4 speed gearbox. They have the hex foot rest rod as one piece. It holds both left and right footrests. On the 45C it has separate rods for each footrest. Is that a trait of the 3 speed box bikes 
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on March 15, 2016, 09:08:46 PM
I've been looking for a replacement Ammeter for the 45C (first pic). I could not seem to find anything like it until I came across this one on Fleebay (second pic) which says Halfords. Although not quite the same It's the nearest so far. So Pete's comments about the Exhaust being from Halfords may add weight to the ammeter being from them as well.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Dstep on March 16, 2016, 02:16:33 AM
Hi Owen,
My '52 three speed has two hex rods, one for each foot rest. So that must  be a trait of 3-speed bikes.

David
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Adam_R on March 16, 2016, 06:24:31 AM
correct the 3 speed do indeed have two rods, one for each footrest.

just to throw my pennies worth in,
a complete mechanical restoration but keeping intact the dirt,  rust and general condition of the outer faces of the working components then a wipe down with an oily rag would look very nice in my opinion.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on March 16, 2016, 07:59:49 AM
My 39 also. Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: timsdad on March 16, 2016, 09:06:31 AM
Yes, the 3 speeders have to have two rods because, I think, the right and left footrests are not in line.


The Doncaster Toasting Bread Co got took over by Betabake in Norwich. Betabake then went bust in the '80s when their drivers wrecked all their Ford Transcontinental trucks on the A140. There was hardly a month went by when one of these unfortunate artics didn't roll over into a ditch at night when shunting between Ipswich and Norwich. Bread would then be cheap for a day or two, and that really helped all the poor people.

I think you'll find Weetabix boxes are the same gauge, Owen.

Ray
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Lilyloodles on March 16, 2016, 10:26:41 AM
Owen,

The footrests are also different lengths to compensate for different positioning of two hex rods. My '45 came with only one side and none of the spacers but luckily Pete made me up a complete set, so all sorted.

keep up the good work

Tony
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Dstep on March 16, 2016, 03:23:06 PM
Gents,
To save me from having to sort it out later, would someone be kind enough to tell me which is which?
Which one goes on top, long or short, and which one is the left foot rest, or the right.

Lazy David.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on March 16, 2016, 03:34:54 PM
I was snapping away yesterday and thought the same thoughts as you David. The nearest hex hole to the engine (and lower) is for the RHS and the other is for the LHS
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Dstep on March 16, 2016, 03:44:51 PM
Great, which one is the slightly longer one? I forgot (10 years ago) to note which one was longer, don't really remember if I even noticed at the time.

David
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on March 17, 2016, 08:39:18 AM
When I next get chance to clear the preservation fluid (oil) off the bits I will measure them.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: timsdad on March 17, 2016, 08:45:00 AM
It's easy enough to loosely assemble things to make sure which rod is which.

If memory serves me right, the longest foot rest goes on the right hand side and the longest hex rod goes on the left. It's important not to omit the flat washers that sandwich the primary case sides to prevent distortion - these are often lost by that useless previous owner.

Ray
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on March 17, 2016, 11:01:18 AM
Well this got me wondering. 'Coz my 39 C10 came with identical foot pegs and I'm sure they are original. I've only got a 39 parts list and it quotes  pegs 29-7526 (2) and rods 29-7529/6 (2). There must be some more differences if Ray's 1940 C has those odd length pegs and rods?  Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: timsdad on March 17, 2016, 03:54:23 PM
You're right on the pegs being the same, Ron, as my '40 book shows them both as 29-7536 so I was thinking of something else.

It's the spacers that are different with the long one, 29-7530 (4 and 1/4") on the right and the shorter one 29-7532 (it looks like 4 and 1/8") on the left. The hex rods are l/h 29-7544 and r/h 29-7529 but the book doesn't show the length. The 1940 C10, C11 and C12 all appear to be the same.

Ray
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on March 18, 2016, 06:11:40 PM
Looking at the wheels on the 45C. I might have to get them re-spoked as the original spokes (which were painted) are quite rusted. The rear sprocket has signs of wear and is riveted to the hub. Now I need to find someone to redo the teeth on the sprocket before getting it rebuilt or locate a replacement sprocket I can fit to the hub.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: chaterlea25 on March 18, 2016, 09:17:29 PM
Hi, Owen,
Having looked at the photos of the 45C and refraining from comment
Now you have doubts about the wheels integrity
I'll bet when you remove the tyres you will find the rims in poor condition :(
One thing will lead to another as I believe its gone too far to respond to oily rag treatment ::)
There used to be a sprocket retoothing service advertisement in OBM?
Would the 17 tooth sprocket in my other post be suitable for your 45C
There are also clutch cables that says fits 45 to 53 C

John

Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on March 18, 2016, 09:34:36 PM
It's the daftest idea ever on these C's where the rear sprocket is laced into the wheel with the spokes. Replacing the sprocket requires a wheel rebuild. It might be worth sending a PM to Leon. He might just have one. But beware, the dish is different for the civy and WD models.

Otherwise if you contact http://www.sprocketsunlimited.com/ (http://www.sprocketsunlimited.com/) They can probably put you in touch with a refurb guy.   Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: timsdad on March 19, 2016, 07:52:45 AM
It's a straightforward enough job to refurbish these early hubs.

I just drilled out the rivets, turned off the old sprocket to leave a sort of half-depth top hat shape, modified a post-war C11 sprocket to fit and drilled four lateral 1/4" holes through the joint for short dowels. The assembly can then be welded together over the dowels, as an invisible repair, and reassembled on the hub with BSC bolts and nuts. I used Loctite with locking washers to secure it, blasted and powder coated it all before fitting new bearings and rebuilding the wheel.

The rebuilt hub assembly has had a fair bit of use and shown no sign of trouble at all.

Ray
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on March 21, 2016, 05:57:10 PM
I was checking the rim offset on the front wheel as pictured. It looks around 3/4" from the hub face. Am I checking it correctly and can anyone confirm the measurement?

Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on March 21, 2016, 06:00:02 PM
I'm having trouble getting the speedo drive off the bike. I've removed the nut and washers but it won't budge. I tried unscrewing the shaft on the spedo drive side but no joy. Should I just be able to lever it off?
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on March 21, 2016, 06:04:32 PM
Anyone know how to remove the LHS handlebar end? I've tried tapping it off and unscrewing it but it's not budging.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Dstep on March 21, 2016, 06:07:44 PM
Hi Owen,
If you have removed the nut and washer, then the speedo drive should just lift off. On mine the hole had been crimped closed slightly by some heavy handed person that tightened it up too much. Try holding the shaft and screwing the drive off.

David
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on March 21, 2016, 06:40:18 PM
Owen. Yes you are measuring the offset correctly, and if the wheel was set in the middle of the forks, go with that off set. I agree with David. The speedo drive should just pull off when the spindle nuts are off. And I think the handlebar end cap is just an interference fit. Try getting it hot with a blow lamp, let it cool a bit and tap it off with a blunt screwdriver. Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on March 21, 2016, 06:55:15 PM
Thank's Lads.

In the process of removing the clutch I had a problem unscrewing the nuts of the clutch drive plate centre. The studs were rotating. I need to braise the studs as I did on my C10 to stop them rotating. I Don't think my propane torch will get it hot enough so may end up getting one of these http://cpc.farnell.com/kemper/555d/saldatutto-welding-kit-to-2850/dp/TL1673105?ost=tl1673105&selectedCategoryId=&categoryName=All+Categories&categoryNameResp=All%2BCategories (http://cpc.farnell.com/kemper/555d/saldatutto-welding-kit-to-2850/dp/TL1673105?ost=tl1673105&selectedCategoryId=&categoryName=All+Categories&categoryNameResp=All%2BCategories)
 
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Dstep on March 21, 2016, 07:07:42 PM
Hi Owen,
Just checked the offset on my C11 and it is as you measured, 3/4".

David
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Adam_R on March 21, 2016, 07:44:15 PM
Owen,
my speedo drive was very tight and had to be unscrewed from the spindle.
another member kindly donated some spokes to me so if you have 20inch wheels i have a bunch of spokes and nipples that are going spare.
a few of them snapped on removal and some are probably past their best, so its not a full set.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Lilyloodles on March 22, 2016, 08:25:39 AM
Owen,

I agree with everyone on this as speedo drive should simply prize off as its not screwed on or anything. Probably been on there so long that a film of rust is holding it down. Wheel alignment is also correct and same as mine. Does the handlbar end cap have a thread inside or a grub screw? I don't have one on the lhs of my handlebars, just an enclosed rubber grip, I do however have an end cap on throttle side that is not threaded and has a grub screw attached it to handlbar end.

Tony
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on March 23, 2016, 04:37:30 PM
Ten worry Balls

Having only 4 speed HW gearboxes up till January this year. I'm a bit of a Virgin when it comes to 3 speed gearboxes. I've just started stripping the 3 speed box on my 45C (well I think it was the gearbox as it was covered in so much crud I'm not sure) To my delight or should that be horror. I found ten (10) 5/16" ball bearings under the first cover. I can't find them in the parts manual and wondered if anyone else can enlighten me as to where they should or should not be?
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on March 23, 2016, 04:47:43 PM
Stripping the engine down shows some wear on the cam/followers but overall it's quite good and it has a the later ramped cam fitted. Although the oil pump needs a little attention for the pickup nipple as it's come adrift form the bottom plate. Luckily it was held in place by the sump filter mesh. The crank pin oil way is not full of crap and the big end seems ok (without stripping it yet) but the small end will have to be re-bushed.

Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: timsdad on March 24, 2016, 06:35:56 AM
The cage has disintegrated on one of your shaft bearings, Owen, and the balls have fallen into the box.

Ray
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Pat on March 24, 2016, 08:41:12 AM
The only bearing that big on a 3 speed is the output shaft. The balls would have to get past a big washer and a bigger gear to get out, dig deeper for damage.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Pat on March 24, 2016, 08:44:14 AM
For Adam R, I am rebuilding my 20" wheels and would like to have your spare spokes. I will PM you. Thanks.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on March 24, 2016, 12:11:28 PM
Owen is your box like mine with this type clutch lever? #29-3306. I seem to remember that there is a 5/16 ball in the lug the presses on the clutch push rod. I also seem to remember that I dropped one inside the cover and had to fish it out with a magnet. Maybe someone had ten goes at it.......Or maybe they just dropped them through the inspection hole for a laugh?  :(  Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Lilyloodles on March 24, 2016, 01:59:39 PM
Ron,

Owen's 45 should be the later type 3-speed box that has a different clutch cable arm, but it still has the ball inside that the clutch rod buffers onto and yes I've dropped a few of those inside these boxes over the years.

Tony
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on March 24, 2016, 02:11:06 PM
Glad it's not just me Tony. But at least I fished it out. It's a job to believe that someone has dropped ten of them, but I guess in that outer cover, they can't really do any harm.

The 1939 parts list covers all (12) models for that year and is the most awkward book to follow. I was trying to compare notes with the 3 speed box in the Draganfly catalogue and could see that the main shell and intermediate cover have the same part numbers, but the outer cover is different. Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Lilyloodles on March 24, 2016, 02:36:36 PM
Yes I agree Ron, dropping one ball is annoying, but ten of them!!!

That said, if your outer case is different and the clutch cable arm is also different then what else is different between these boxes. I noticed a 1940 parts list book on Ebay up for £50. It would be interesting to see if the 1940 box is the same model as your '39 or Owen's & my 45s?

Tony
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on March 24, 2016, 03:33:29 PM
Well the cover is a totally different shape with a sort of brim where the screws are and the inspection plug is bigger and brass.

I'm sure the 1940 model is exactly the same as mine, with lots of differences occurring on the post war models ......Not least the oil tank!  Ron 
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on March 24, 2016, 05:41:40 PM
1940 they had the same gearbox as Ron's military model. Post war >45 had the later box. The clutch push rod actuator has the ball in place with the external lever being round. I will investigate further when the weather clears up (It is an English bank holiday the next few days after all).
Mine with the preservation fluid still on!!!
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: timsdad on March 25, 2016, 08:36:46 AM
The pre-'45 foot-change boxes are all the same, apart from the very early ones just having a different output gear and sprocket.

As far as I've discovered, the post-war 3 speeders, with the knurled, alloy filler plug, only differ in their outer cases - all the internals are unchanged from the earlier ones that have the hex brass filler plug.

The little ball that bears on the clutch push rod should be held loosely in place by having the hollow socket's edges folded over slightly. It can be held in place for re-assembly with a blob of grease. However, I've had them drop into the box when a clutch cable breaks or gets alarmingly out of adjustment.

Last year I rode my C12 home about twenty miles with no clutch because the ball had dropped out when everything got hot and slack coming through heavy traffic. There's not enough adjustment to make up for the missing ball.


Ray
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on March 25, 2016, 09:28:53 AM
Yes Ray! But even with the miles you do, I guess you would hard pushed to end up with ten of them ???  Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Lilyloodles on March 25, 2016, 12:37:18 PM
this all sounds like a lot of balls to me......there I went and said it

Tony
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: WD Chris on March 25, 2016, 01:23:41 PM
Hi Owen, now the bearing thing makes sense, I don't have one at all, couldn't make out why my clutch was so hard to pull in, any chance you could post me one of yours. Enjoying your thread and will help if I can.
Chris.  :)
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: timsdad on March 25, 2016, 05:14:23 PM
I've just had a squint at a spare inner cover from a 3-speed box and there's a handy hole below the shafts to let the oil flow round. It measures about 11/32" so there's no reason why a set of 5/16" balls wouldn't get though into the outer casing. I expect the spinning gears act in some sort of paddling way and pushed the balls through the hole along with the oil circulation. It's the only logical explanation, anyway, and all will be revealed in due course, no doubt.


With regard to the captured (or uncaptured in some cases) ball that operates the clutch, you have to bear in mind that the lever that's being pulled by the cable is pivoted so the ends move in a shallow arc. The ball is needed to roll across the end of the push rod and is there to prevent scuffing as well as an anti-friction device against the spinning pushrod.


Ray
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on March 25, 2016, 06:34:01 PM
Unfortunately the balls are rusty and the wrong size for the actuator.
As there was good weather today (and I had done my DIY chores for the week) I got busy getting the head off the barrel. In the end I had to drill the nut sides and crack them so they would undo. So many of the nuts are rounded/corroded beyond a spanner fit.
I had to drill out the head from the front down tube bolt to engine plates as it was solid. It also throws up the question of the bottom down tube bolt offset spacer. On the timing side there is no shoulder. I know my 53C's have a slight shoulder on the timing side. Can anyone confirm if my 45C should have a slight shoulder on the timing side?
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Lilyloodles on March 26, 2016, 12:33:05 PM
Owen,

My '45 frame has no lip on timing side front frame, but it does have a 3mm lip on the timing side rear frame. I will try and take a picture of it for you

Tony
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on March 26, 2016, 03:20:01 PM
Cheers Tony,

I noticed your oil feed pipes have the rubber towards the oil tank. On mine they are towards the engine?
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: timsdad on March 27, 2016, 04:10:20 PM
That's how my '40 frames are, Owen, - they're the same width as the crank case so the mounting plates go up against the frame with no spacing needed.

Ray
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Lilyloodles on March 28, 2016, 05:22:35 PM
Owen,
Here is the picture of frame as promised (been in Belgium all weekend so sorry for delay).
The two oil pipes were fitted like this on bike when I bought it, but they were also loose and simply positioned like you see them, so I don't really know yet if that is the correct way around or not. As your 45 actually had them fitted in place, it may actually be the correct way and not the way i have them. That said I would have thought that the rubber section would have been at the oil tank end due to the bend at that end.

Tony
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on March 30, 2016, 07:18:53 PM
When taking off the cables from the bike I had a few extra bits on the clutch cable. I would amagine that they were due to age and the cable stretching.
I did manage to get the dip switch apart and wondered if there should be a spring in the middle pin to give tension when its one side or the other?

Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on March 30, 2016, 07:42:21 PM
I did manage to open the horn to have a root around. Unfortunately it will need a little more TLC to resurrect it.
 
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on April 03, 2016, 05:26:50 PM
I found the gearbox.
It was hiding under 50 years of gunge and the mystery of the 10 5/16" ball bearings is still unanswered. 
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on April 03, 2016, 05:49:03 PM
The Speedo from Chronometrics. Pre patinated. Aslo tried the dynamo and has a good 5.3 volts off the drill.

Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on April 06, 2016, 09:29:25 PM
So a bit more disassembly of the gearbox revealed the main roller bearing was intact and the 10 5/16" balls are still a mystery.  A slight problem with the Gear Paw carrier plate and Gear Control Quadrant being rusty. The gear lever return spring locating pin has quite a bit of wear on one side. Looks like I will need to Loctite the input shaft bush as it's not located in the casing.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on April 06, 2016, 09:35:41 PM
I stripped the main shaft out of the speedo drive as the cable had snapped in the drive end. I managed to get out som of it but ended up pushing it inside the square end. Hopefully there is enough depth for the speedo drive cable to fit.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on April 10, 2016, 09:20:39 PM
Just noticed that Draganfly do a tapered roller headstock bearing set that may fit the 45C.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on April 21, 2016, 09:08:54 PM
Looks like a total rebuild. It won't be concourse, but hoping to get it looking tidy.
Next question is do I powder coat or pain the frame? I can spray the rest myself.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: timsdad on April 22, 2016, 07:19:17 AM
Several years ago I used to be a fan of stove enamelled frames but mostly did my own in two-pack for economy reasons. This was because I'd seen powder coated ones that had lifted and caused problems when the rust got under the plastic coating.

I became a convert when I inspected a Honda XL250 trailie that an old boy had rebuilt, - he worked for the chap that did my sand blasting. This old Honda had been used and abused every day through several winters because Mick kept his best bikes for summer leisure and didn't have a car. They told me that the frames needed blasting and cleaning properly and then powder coating while still dry and perfectly clean, also the powder coating process had come on a lot since the early days. I've had my frames, and most other black steel parts, powder coated since then and have had no trouble.

Satin Black suits old bikes best, I think, and the tool boxes, mudguards and the like can then get two-packed over the top as a final finish if needed. Powder coating gives a really durable finish to the insides of mudguards and chain guards that are getting blasted by road grit.

Works for me!


Ray
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on May 04, 2016, 10:01:49 PM
Managed to get a bit more done on the 45C. Finally got the rear mudguard off the bike after drilling out one of the stubborn bolts. The bike has lost so much weight with all the mud falling off the bits. It looks like the rear wheel offset is 11/16". I can use one of the later rear wheel sprockets to re-sprocket the 45C one. I need to fettle the tool box hinge  as its rusted through.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on May 29, 2016, 07:34:46 PM
Finally had chance to look at the oil pump. As the inlet NRV nipple of the pump had cracked and fallen off as I removed the pump. I located another nipple/plate assy. As the pump was a little tight. I decided to strip and give it a good clean.  I lapped the faces of the body which caused the lower return gears to be slightly proud of the body. A quick grind with fine valve paste on the back of the gears/body soon sorted that out. Now it runs smoothly.

Wooden you believe it. The old breathers in the rocker cover had been removed (probably because they blow oil all over the top of the engine) and replaced with lumps of wood. Thankfully I can use the two breathers that Dstep kindly donated to the rebuild. However I will be blocking the breathing holes as I would like to keep some oil in the engine.

Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on June 10, 2016, 07:03:30 PM
Slowly getting her stripped down. I'll be sending the wheels off to brook wood wheel builders near Salisbury next month to see how much that will cost me. I'm wondering if I need to sort the bearings out before or after they rebuild them. Mind you the bearings are pretty good for her age.
Some of the frame is a little pitted. Should I sand it down and fill before power coating or will the filler fall out with the heat?
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: hampshirebiker on June 10, 2016, 07:34:33 PM
Best to ask whoever you get to do the powder coating. They may have a suitable preparation of thier own.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on June 10, 2016, 07:52:07 PM
I don't like powder coat. I've found that it chips off when you undo nuts and bolts and you can't prepare the parts before hand. With a sand blasted frame and some body filler if required and lots of coats of high build primer (2 pack is even better) suitably rubbed down to eliminate the pits before top coat is the way I always do it. I use 2 pack top coat on a shiny black frame, and a single pack polyurethane paint on military bikes. Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on June 10, 2016, 09:29:57 PM
I have plenty of cellulose high build primer and black paint. It's the time to get the frame prepared and sprayed acts the problem as I don't have a covered place to spray.

I have just got a tapered roller headstock bearing set from Draganfly. They are supposed to be a direct replacement for the girder fork models. They actually say SRM on the roller cage and were cheaper than the balls, cups and cone set.
Shame they don't do it for the telescopic fork models.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on June 11, 2016, 05:46:17 AM
Owen I never spray indoors. You've seen that big open 'Party Tent' where I do my spraying. The fumes are drawn away naturally to atmosphere.

The small bits you are spraying could easily be done outside or under an open sided garden gazebo or a big sheet hung up to create a roof. Just pick the right day.  Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: timsdad on June 11, 2016, 08:28:15 AM
Up to the late '70s I only ever sprayed outside - cars, bike parts and trucks, but, like Ron says, you're governed by the weather. You just learn how to adjust the viscosity and method if there's a bit of a breeze or if it's a bit chilly and I wish I'd thought of the idea of a tent!

I was shown how to spray when I was eighteen, and did the bottom half of my Mk2 Consul in the back yard of an old boy who did car repairs in the next village. He took nothing for the materials, I then bought my own compressor and spray gun and was painting trucks at weekends within a year. It earned me enough money to get a better bike.


Ray
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on June 11, 2016, 08:55:58 AM
I've done most of the C10 and bits of the C11 myself. It's the time it takes to prepare and then try and spray before the metal oxidises (with all the rain we are getting).
I think the best thing is to do a little bit at a time.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on June 13, 2016, 07:26:47 PM
Looking at the replacement head light shell. It has a couple of extra holes in the base and I wonder whats the best way to fill them?
1, Cut a piece of metal to fit inside and then weld over.
2, Cut a piece of metal to fit inside, weld in place and body filler to finish.
or
3, Cut a piece of metal to fit the hole and then weld in place.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: hampshirebiker on June 13, 2016, 07:49:13 PM
The middle one (two no 2s). You'll have to use filler for a top finish anyway.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on June 13, 2016, 08:42:51 PM
Yes I Agree. A round piece of sheet steel slightly bigger than the hole on the inside and tacked into place with a MIG welder, to save too much heat and distortion. Then sand the welds flush and body fill it. Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: camman3 on June 13, 2016, 09:04:52 PM
But don't spray it there, or you'll kill those seedlings.

Meant to say to you Saturday, you are welcome to spray any parts in my car port, which is well ventilated but wind free.
I have compressor and spray gun you can use, so you'd just need to bring parts and paint....and beer. ;)

Graham
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on June 13, 2016, 09:38:30 PM
Or my party tent!  Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on June 13, 2016, 11:17:17 PM
Thanks for the info and offers. I have all the spraying gear but jneed to make some shelter.
Progress is slow but I'm getting the parts together and when the weather holds I will attack the frame.

I've noticed the replacement rear mudguard is slightly different radius tu the old one. I'm going to do a dry fit to see if it needs a little fettling befor a tacking it with the wet and dry.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: richie1958 on June 14, 2016, 03:25:59 PM
Owen I've got a frame for one of those pillion seats somewhere. It's got tension springs like the riders' saddle. If you're thinking of fitting a pillion seat back on the bike, I should think it would be far more comfortable than the usual bum pad.
Let me know if you're interested and I'll try and find it.
                                                                               Richie
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: enfield49 on June 14, 2016, 03:33:38 PM
I have one of those foam pads supplied by the VMCC , it is useless you would be far better off with a cushion. Graham
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on June 22, 2016, 09:56:30 PM
I am thinking of fitting a single side sealed bearing in the 45C 3 speed gearbox to help keep the crud out of the internals as I have done in my 53 4 speed boxes. I noticed the seals can be plastic or metal. I think I need only go for the plastic seals from a well known brand. None of the cheep Chinese cheese bearings.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: timsdad on June 23, 2016, 08:31:59 AM
I put a new NSK bearing in my '40 C, - tweaked the inner shield out so just a plastic seal on the outside and the gearbox is as oil tight as a really oil tight thing.

Ray
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on June 23, 2016, 09:08:13 AM
That's what I do with any box I rebuild :) Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Dstep on June 24, 2016, 03:56:02 PM
Good thinking guys, might do it with the engine I am rebuilding, couldn't hurt.

David
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: timsdad on June 24, 2016, 04:01:46 PM
'Every little helps', as a shopkeeper once said!

Ray
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on June 24, 2016, 04:31:10 PM
I don't see it as necessary on the engine as it aids primary chain lubricantion for pre 54 C's anyway. On the >54 models it may help the timed breather.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on July 04, 2016, 01:17:50 PM
Next week I hoping to go to brookwood to start the wheel rebuilding. No should I strip and rebuild/replace the wheel bearings befor I get the wheel rebuilt or if the are not too bad, replace them afterwards?
Would you send the brake plates as well?
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on July 04, 2016, 02:41:10 PM
He won't need the brake plate. My own wheel builder requires the bearings in place so that he can turn the wheel in his aligning jig. The condition doesn't matter. You can replace them or clean re-pack later. Has yours still got the cup and cone type? If so My bloke would require the balls in place (with grease) and the cones without the wheel spindle. He'd put his pointy things each side in the spindle holes.  Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on July 04, 2016, 08:09:18 PM
Talking with JJ cables and Ron today about cables made me think of the pull throttle I have (correct for year).

Mine has a plug fitted to clamp the cable which looks like its been soldered. Do others have the same clamp arrangement?

Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Excavator on July 04, 2016, 09:49:53 PM
Same as mine, Owen - the nipple is soldered to the cable but it's not attached to the block, although is a fairly tight fit inside it.

Tony  ;)
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on July 05, 2016, 05:53:15 AM
Owen here is the original cable I just got copied at JJ's. The sliding fitting that the nipple fits into has no through slot like yours sort of shaped like a saucepan. From memory my other two bikes (C10 and Enfield) are the same.

Lots of pictures and parts at Cornucopia and this one seems to have the through slot like yours.
  http://www.cornucopia-enterprises.de/spares-bsa_pre.html (http://www.cornucopia-enterprises.de/spares-bsa_pre.html)

OK click on model Q8 for instance and then sundries. But look through all the pre war models to see what you can see.   Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Lilyloodles on July 05, 2016, 11:18:13 AM
Owen,

My '45 C11 also has same block slide that you have. I ordered new cable via JJ as Ron suggested. It hasn't arrived as yet, but if it does with round end fixing then i'll just change it over. As Ron said cornucopia sell the block sliders, although you'rs looks useable to me.

Tony
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on July 05, 2016, 12:15:28 PM
Tony/Owen I think my nipple and Owen's are the same. It's just that Owen's slider has the ability to accept the cable extended through the nipple. Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Excavator on July 05, 2016, 04:32:05 PM
Tony/Owen I think my nipple and Owen's are the same. It's just that Owen's slider has the ability to accept the cable extended through the nipple. Ron

Look forward to confirmation on that, guys - I haven't ordered my cable yet but may be able to alter the spec if nipples are different size - otherwise just have to do it myself. I prefer bigger nipples.

Tony  :)
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on July 13, 2016, 06:33:06 PM
Well I had a nice bumble around Salisbury trying to find Brickwood wheel builders today. I had a nice chat about C bikes with the bearded chap who looked like an older Richie. He was going through the options of colour (satin/gloss black), chrome/black rims. He even talked about the rear wheel lacing and how the spokes on the driven wheel should cross more than twice. In fact my 45c crossed 4 spokes on the drive side.
As the sprocket is laced to the rim. I asked him if he can get it reworked and he said that he knows someone who can do it correctly by machining off the teeth on the old sprocket. Then fitting/welding a ring on and machining the teath To that. That way you don't get the teath distorted.
I've left the wheels with him so he can measure the distances where the spokes cross and offsets.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on July 13, 2016, 07:01:22 PM
Was he wearing 'Jesus' sandals :)  Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on July 13, 2016, 08:18:46 PM
Can't say I was looking at his feet. Just the awesome workshop. Oh and trying not to run over the jack Russell.
I did pop to Britbits today. Unfortunately they have had to order a replacement sprocket for the gearbox.

Next thing is to get the petrol tank and front mudguard sorted!
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on July 13, 2016, 09:05:57 PM
As I'm sorting out the rest of the bike I'm looking at getting the girder forks re-bushed.
Has anyone used or heard of 'Jake Robbins' www.jake-robbins-vintage-engineering.co.uk (http://www.jake-robbins-vintage-engineering.co.uk) he quotes around £200 to £250 to rebus have. Or recommend (from personal experience) anyone else?
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on July 13, 2016, 09:39:11 PM
Your link doesn't work for me but I've know Jake for a few years, he's in Hastings.....A bit of a Hippy type!

Hmmm! I hate to say it, but I'd be reluctant to recommend him. He's a smashing guy with some amazing skills (Like scratch building 'Castle' forks for Broughs) 

He re-bushed my M20 forks with the wrong bronze (sintered) and after less than 2000 miles the bushes had all but vanished. I sent him my forks in a very tough box which he failed to use for the return journey and the brake rod lug got bent.

I've also been listening to the woes of an American guy who is fighting to get his forks back after 2-3 years and shed loads of money. While this has been debated, several other guys have complained about him.

I use my own local engineers for such things now. Cosmik knows them. If you want to bring them down on a day off I'll introduce you. But I need some notice to make sure he's not on a day off himself.  Ron 
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on July 13, 2016, 09:51:01 PM
Ron,
Thanks for the heads up, I'll get a couple of dates and let you know.then I can pop down and talk to your engineers.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on July 17, 2016, 07:22:50 PM
Well as the weather was good I stripped the rest of the bike down. I just need to degrease the whole thing now i can get most of it into the parts washer.
The Girder fork shafts are really quite good. They look like there is very little wear on the shafts and bushes. Although i need to degrease them to make sure. The fork spindles look like they have been chromed, judging by the ends.
The centre stand has worn. which gives approx 0.5 mm clearance to the bush. Ill machine out the stand and make a new bush to suite.
Finally got the front engine plate to frame bolt out in the end. I had to partially drill out the bolt and then pull it through with adding washers to the nut to drag it out.

 
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on July 17, 2016, 07:40:07 PM
The bike as is has black wheels. However, I noticed that the spec data I have for 1945 says the wheel hubs would have been black and the rims chromed with a silver painted centre lined in black? Not sure what to do them now?
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on July 18, 2016, 06:09:42 AM
I expect your rims are rusty beyond re-plating? Therefore here is what I'd do. I'd prepare and paint the hubs myself. I'd then give the hubs to Larry (Spraymaster) and get him to order new chrome rims from 'Devon Rims' (he gets a discount)  Paint the central stripe and then rebuild them with stainless spokes. (Larry is the cheapest wheel builder around).

 Here are the wheels from my special which is precisely how they were done.  Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: timsdad on July 18, 2016, 06:59:22 AM
A cheaper option is to have the rims and hubs blasted and then powder coated with silver rims and black hubs, Owen, then do the bearings and nail together with stainless spokes.

My old C12 is done like that and they look fine - that was the pre-war spec and the first post-war ones were likely the same before BSA got themselves together with detailed Sales Literature and other such nonsense.

Ray
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on July 18, 2016, 12:59:14 PM
Thanks Gents,

The ones I took to Brickwood were all black. However, I like the idea of chrome rims with centre mat silver and pin striped in black to match the petrol tank.
It will define it as a early post war model better than being all black.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on July 18, 2016, 02:47:01 PM
Well when you're ready Owen, I'll take you to meet Larry for a quote.......In the New Forest.  Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Adam_R on July 18, 2016, 04:28:34 PM
yes definitely get chrome or Stainless rims and spokes.
i blasted and sprayed my own hubs and then built up the wheels.
its actually not as hard as its made out to be, theres a guide on here and plenty info on the net.

Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Lilyloodles on July 18, 2016, 04:35:30 PM
Owen,

After careful rubbing back of my 45C rims and spokes I can definately say that mine was all black with no pinstriping or stainless spokes etc. I like the idea though of the pinstriping, but will probably redo mine in black as was originally intended (purist or just plain lazy, the jury is still out).

Tony
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on July 23, 2016, 08:12:38 PM
I've decided to go for the bling option. Chrome rims, mat silver centre with black pin striping to match what the petrol tank will be.
On another note I checked the clearance in the bore. 6 thou an inch from the top an 4 thou an inch in from the bottom on a +20 bore. Me thinks I will get her rebored and a new piston.
I got some friction plates for the girder forks whic turned out to be Tufnell discs for an M20. Unfortunately the centre hole is too big. I will return them and find an odd piece of Tufnell.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Cosmikdebriis on July 27, 2016, 09:39:56 AM

The fork spindles look like they have been chromed, judging by the ends.


In my experience fork spindles are indeed plated, presumably to add hardness and reduce wear on the principle as you would normally replace the bushes.

What might be worth looking in to is if the spindles are made of any special grade of steel, like a wheel spindle. They could well be and mild steel might snap with obvious consequences.

I did make some spindles out of stainless for my 1921 Sun (the one I took to Popham) but as it is basically a bicycle and was never likely to do any real mileage, I wasn't too concerned about strength and wear.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Tman on July 27, 2016, 11:15:36 AM
Remaking spindles for my old P some years back and the info was EN12 or above. Must admit I've never seen plated spindles other than the remains of Cad plate on the ends, but these spindles live a hard oscillating  life and I don't think any sort of plate will withstand that for too long. The Chief had the spindles zinc plated during the rebuild as I can't abide rusty or painted fasteners! Cad is no longer available.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on July 27, 2016, 08:50:02 PM
I stripped the rocker breather today. They are just filled with wire wool which I would imagine should collect the oil as it cools and allow it to drip into the engine. In practice they leak oil all over the top of the engine!

I'm going to have a go at getting some made without the through holes. by the way the thread is 3/4" x 20tpi BSC.

Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Cosmikdebriis on July 28, 2016, 08:03:36 AM
If you get some made without the holes then surely you will need to engineer the engine being able to breathe elsewhere?

Perhaps it's possible to retro fit the later crank shaft breather?

In which case maybe you could Araldite (or similar) something in the originals to block the holes.

Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Lilyloodles on July 28, 2016, 11:20:19 AM
I've decided to go for the bling option. Chrome rims, mat silver centre with black pin striping to match what the petrol tank will be.
On another note I checked the clearance in the bore. 6 thou an inch from the top an 4 thou an inch in from the bottom on a +20 bore. Me thinks I will get her rebored and a new piston.
I got some friction plates for the girder forks whic turned out to be Tufnell discs for an M20. Unfortunately the centre hole is too big. I will return them and find an odd piece of Tufnell.

Owen,
I had exactly the same issue with my discs. I bought them from Draganfly and they are clearly M20 and not C Series. My original ones are not actually that bad so I think I might clean them up and reuse, or do you think that new ones are a must?

Tony
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on July 28, 2016, 01:08:03 PM
The engines with the rocker breathers have the same crankcase breather as the later Dynamo models. I'm. Loathed to araldite or block the originals in case the bit falls out. However I did think of soldering a disc where the wire wool was. I might see how much a local engineering firm will charge for making ten blanks in stainless.

Tony,
I bought the discs before stripping the forks. The friction material doesn't look too bad. I'll give them a wash and see.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Cosmikdebriis on July 28, 2016, 03:04:47 PM
The engines with the rocker breathers have the same crankcase breather as the later Dynamo models. I'm. Loathed to araldite or block the originals in case the bit falls out. However I did think of soldering a disc where the wire wool was. I might see how much a local engineering firm will charge for making ten blanks in stainless.


Perhaps I didn't explain myself very well.

What I meant was. Clean up the bit(s) you have already opened up. Glue a suitable disc inside, close up and re fit.

The worst that could happen was the disc would rattle about if it came loose.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: chaterlea25 on July 29, 2016, 10:12:05 PM
Hi Owen
3/4 x 20 tpi is the thread that used to be used on imperial electrical conduit
maybe you could locate some blanking plugs to suit??
The same thread is common on imperial oil filters

John
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on July 29, 2016, 10:22:53 PM
Thanks John,

I will have a look around. However i'm trying to keep the external view as original as possible.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on July 30, 2016, 08:14:14 PM
I had another look at the throttle and Ron you were right. the cable nipple came out of the slider after i'd cleaned all the crud off.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on July 30, 2016, 08:22:24 PM
I managed to get the handlebar lever bits off the handlebars. But because of the fixed LH side bar stop I had to open up the clamp and drag it off from the RH side.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on July 31, 2016, 09:03:39 AM
Looking at the gearbox clutch actuator on the 3 speed gearbox. It uses a pin to push the clutch push rod. On my 45 C the pin is well worn and has an indent which may explain the extra ball bearings being used between the actuator and release shaft. The later 4 speed gearboxes use a ball bearing instead of the pin.
I wonder if the 3 speed can be converted to use the ball bearing pin of the 4 speed?

The pic shows a 3 speed actuator on the left and the 4 speed (heavy) on the right.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: chaterlea25 on July 31, 2016, 03:36:15 PM
Hi Owen
What overall thickness is the 3 speed lump thats tapped for the pin?
ie. is there enough meat to tap out  to fit the 3/8th dia 4 speed screw & ball??

John
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on July 31, 2016, 07:05:47 PM
John,
I will have a look when I can dig out the gearbox bits. Its a bit tight in the shed at the moment.

I managed to gave a good cleaning session on the frame and bits. The black paint on the brake plates was peeling off and showing silver underneath. The brochure for 45 says the brake plates were Chromium. Not sure if that means plated or painted. I also noticed silver paint on the rear brake pedal but would have thought it should be black?

Now I've got 99% of the crud/oil off the frame I can dry build and see if the new/SH rear mudguard is the correct shape When I offered it up to the old one it was a little flatter than the original by eye.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Lilyloodles on August 01, 2016, 04:20:56 PM
Owen,

Both my front and rear brake plates are matt silver. I've rubbed a little off expecting to find that they were originally black but there was no trace of black underneath. Does this mean that they were actually silver (just seems a little odd)?


Tony
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on August 09, 2016, 08:14:50 PM
Brochure for 46 says silver.
I've decided not to get the rear sprocket redone. But will be going for the chrome rims with a centre in silver. Lined in black, black hubs and mat sIlver brake plates.
Just been cleaning all the tin ware and engine head with the screw fix concentrated degreasing fluid. It woks really well. The black grunge in the rocker cover just washes off after a couple of minutes in the parts washer.
Off to metal magic at eversley tomorrow to get the front mudguard, toolbox, chain guard and centre stand sorted.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Lilyloodles on August 10, 2016, 01:19:58 PM
Thanks for that Owen,
I've attached a picture of one of my brake plates/hubs when I first bought bike. I thought the brake plates looked odd being overall matt silver, but just goes to show how wrong I can be. I intend to redo my wheels as picture in all black, although I may pinstripe rim centres in silver

keep up the good work

Tony
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on August 11, 2016, 10:52:03 AM
Interesting your brake rod/lever are downwards. My 45C was upwards?

Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on August 11, 2016, 11:14:55 AM
Up is correct for 39-40.  Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Lilyloodles on August 11, 2016, 12:46:23 PM
I think you are both right and my 45C is not. Bike came assembled as you see it but with no brake shoes within drums and all nuts on bike were finger tight, so I reckon it was in bits at some stage then assembled loosely for resale.

On another note along the silver paint thread, both my front and back engine/gearbox plates are silver and not black as on other C's that I have owned, is this correct?

Tony
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on August 11, 2016, 01:22:40 PM
Mine are black.
I did notice a lot of silver on my cylinder head. That may be due to aluminium high temp paint being used by the original owner. I think at some point he may have repainted some of the bike.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Lilyloodles on August 11, 2016, 04:18:48 PM
Thanks Owen,

I'll repaint mine black as well I think. Silver looked a bit odd anyway and as you say they were possibly repainted at some time by original owner.

Tony
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on August 11, 2016, 04:23:55 PM
Well the plot thickens. I've just been scrubbing my rear hub and low and behold the hub and sprocket had been painted silver over black!!!
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: camman3 on August 11, 2016, 06:46:46 PM
Probably be silver again under that black ;D
Graham
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on August 12, 2016, 10:36:35 AM
Cleaning up the girder forks yesterday. I found the friction adjuster end nut has been brazed onto the end.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Lilyloodles on August 12, 2016, 01:01:41 PM
I think your spindle has been put on the wrong way around as mine has a bolt head on the friction adjuster side

Tony
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Lilyloodles on August 12, 2016, 01:19:57 PM
Just as an added note, I'm not sure how mine is going to work as the adjuster lever is clearly on a threaded section of the bar, but the bar is only threaded about 1.5cm on that end of the bar and then the bolt head keeps it in place, so maybe if I scrape paint off I may also find that the bolt head is actually a nut brased on as well. I will have a look tonight and let you know with better photos etc.

Tony
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Lilyloodles on August 13, 2016, 10:57:32 AM
Owen,
OK so I've had a closer inspection and it looks like mine is also brazed onto end of spindle. Adjuster appears to have to move in and out along the short threaded section between the brazed nut and the un-threaded spindle. This makes sense to me as all the adjuster does is tighten or slacken off the sprung star washer and the end nut stops it from unwinding itself and falling off with the overall vibration/stress of the girder forks when on the road. The fork bottom link on the adjuster side is un-threaded (the other side is threaded), so this still tells me that the adjuster must move freely along the small threaded section of the spindle, whilst everything else stays doesn't move.

Interestingly the 1946 Parts Book also shows this adjuster as a one piece part number.

Although I've had girder forked motorcycles in the past, I have had no reason to strip them down as with my 45C and to be perfectly honest I don't really know enough about girder forks to know what's right or wrong or seized or not. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

My big problem now is that my adjuster is rock solid against the nut and will not budge. I guess I'm going to have to soak it and try and get it moving or look for a replacement. I'm loath to heat the parts up as well.

Tony
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Tman on August 13, 2016, 04:23:14 PM
That thread looks to be fine. Give it some release oil, leave it for a day or so then mount the spindle length-wise in a soft jawed vice. It'll come free.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Tman on August 13, 2016, 04:37:08 PM
And I meant to add that if my memory serves that brazed-on nut (then forming a long bolt) was correct on my Empire Star too, though the wing nut goes against the friction damper to loosen or tighten the friction plates.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on August 13, 2016, 05:17:42 PM
My own 39 girders are different, with the friction damping at the steering stem end. It was obviously not considered good enough and therefor modified for 40 onward with the bigger friction discs and wing nut. The nut is brazed to make a bolt (otherwise you couldn't get the wing nut on) so that you can hold that end when tightening the nut opposite to adjust the free play of the spindle.

Unless you are worried about your paint, that wing nut will come loose quite easily with some heat. But try the penetrating oil first, but don't force or hammer it or it might brake.

Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Lilyloodles on August 14, 2016, 10:41:02 AM
thanks for all your advice guys, I'll give it a go today and let you know how I get on.

Tony
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Lilyloodles on August 30, 2016, 03:46:53 PM
OK, thanks to all your help (as usual), penetrating oil has freed up the wing nut nicely. Now all I need to do is free up the nuts on the ends of the upper stay bolts. The nuts that are on the ends of the spindles that have squared off ends will only screw out as far as the square ends. Is this correct or am I missing something? The other ends of the spindles are just threaded up til the ends and these nuts came off easily.

Tony
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on August 30, 2016, 07:05:25 PM
No your squares are obviously burred from spannering. Just give them a light file to tidy them up. The nuts should just come off over the squares. Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: timsdad on August 31, 2016, 06:35:07 AM
I think they may have little wire circlips in a groove over the ends of the spindles to prevent the nuts coming right off. These can be just levered off with a pointy thing.

Ray
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on August 31, 2016, 06:48:47 AM
Yes Ray is right. There should be wire clips on the end of the girder shafts.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Lilyloodles on August 31, 2016, 08:41:24 AM
thanks gentlemen, I will check this out tonight. Perhaps that's why the nuts won't budge because they are fowled up with the wire circlips.

Tony
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on September 04, 2016, 04:35:53 PM
Well stripped the speedo drive down and managed to snap all 4 clamp plate screws. It looks like they dined them to stop them coming undone. I did drill them out and tap them 6BA although they may originally have been 8 BA?
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on September 18, 2016, 04:10:44 PM
So another day digging through the dirt and grime on the 45C.
Just a little wear on the centre stand (around 1mm). Going to get it stand bored out and a new over size bush made.
Rear brake arm sleeve was seized on the shaft. After a long soak in penetrating oil and a quick blast with the heat gun and the bush is free.
I Cleaned up the cush drive parts and found the cush drive bearing had a little wear on the splines. Shame I can't find out the millage for the bike!
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on September 25, 2016, 09:51:56 PM
And the wear continues. I took the distributor apart today and found the bolt for the low tension wire just turned round and round. It turns out the solder joint had fractured. I also noticed one of the the advance unit springs had snapped and the advance limit hole was quite worn. It must have given the ignition a few more than the normal 10 degrees advance.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: chaterlea25 on September 26, 2016, 07:42:57 PM
HI Owen,
I take the position where I assume everything is completely shagged out  ???
Then anything that's OK is a Bonus  ;D
Also the one bolt or stud that you do not remove and check will immediately break or strip at reassembly
 ::) ::)

John
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on September 27, 2016, 08:29:46 PM
John,
Wise words indeed.

Well when I stripped the distributor down I noticed the shaft and bearings were in good stead despite the oilier being covered in crud.

The second picture should show a slot on the side of the housing (in the centre). However, its filled up with crud as the distributor label has blocked it from allowing the muck out.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: chaterlea25 on September 27, 2016, 10:18:29 PM
Hi Owen,
Same oilers used on my lathe   ::)

 ::)
John
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on October 08, 2016, 10:04:22 PM
Well I think I have the gearbox ball bearing mystery sorted. After a visit to britbits on Friday where I got a replacement clutch actuator. It looks link the balls in the gearbox we're from old one that had no ball fitted. The previous owner must have failed to captivate the ball in the clutch actuator and thus the ball falling out of the holder into the gearbox 9 times.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on October 09, 2016, 06:07:24 AM
Well that's what I said they were back in March in my reply #119 :) Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on October 09, 2016, 07:29:09 AM
I know, I know. I'll buy you a cupper for the first correct reply  ;D
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Lilyloodles on October 10, 2016, 04:11:46 PM
Owen,

Earlier on in this fantastic article you mentioned your headlamp. Mine is a DU42 6.5 inch, is this correct or should it be a 6 inch?

thanks

Tony
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on October 10, 2016, 05:02:00 PM
Tony a DU42 is fine an MU42 is post war but I don't know the exact date for the change. The main difference is the clamp for the rim. A DU has a spring clip and an MU has a sort of 'claw' clamp. 6" or 6 1/2" ......Depends where/how you measure it. But the Lucas number is the important thing. Also a DU will usually have a flat glass whereas an MU is domed. Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Lilyloodles on October 10, 2016, 06:11:18 PM
Thanks for that Ron,

I have a wire with a sort of claw attached to it. DU42 definately stamped on the shell and a flat glass bezel. Rim is plain brass which I would have thought was incorrect. Is this all a bit of a missmatch or does it look correct?

It was interesting to see that Owen's had a DU42 as well, so maybe the early postwar run had DU42's and not MU42's? Or was it what was on the shelf maybe!

Tony

Pic rotated
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Lilyloodles on October 10, 2016, 06:34:00 PM
Owen,

Just in the process of sorting parts out for chroming on the 45C. Is your Star psring washer on the girder forks chromed or nickel plates? Mine appears to have been nickel. It probably doesn't matter either way, but I was just intrigued.

Tony
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on October 10, 2016, 07:54:49 PM
I think BSA used every thing that was on the shelf after the war. Ron was spot on with the headlight shell. I have a flat glass on the 45 c 11. The fork star washer looks like it should be chrome. However, the chrome is peeling off. The rear hub seems to be black, then silver and finally black.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on October 10, 2016, 08:39:15 PM
Tony your DU42 is correct with nice brass rim and spring clip at the bottom. Economy measures deemed the later rims to be in steel. This is the 'Claw' and spring for an MU42.
 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-LUCAS-TYPE-HEADLAMP-LIGHT-RIM-RETAINING-CATCH-W-CLIP-MU42-DU42-509936-UK-/151503048443?hash=item2346490efb:g:GgYAAOSwxvpXObi3 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-LUCAS-TYPE-HEADLAMP-LIGHT-RIM-RETAINING-CATCH-W-CLIP-MU42-DU42-509936-UK-/151503048443?hash=item2346490efb:g:GgYAAOSwxvpXObi3)

Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Lilyloodles on October 11, 2016, 02:39:50 PM
Thanks for that Ron, I now recognise the claw/spring type as the same as the type on my '50 Douggie. I'll stick with what I've got then....perfect.

Very little needs chroming on the bike other than gear lever, kick start, handlebars plus fittings and a small handful of bolt heads for handlebar bracket fitting and headlamp stays. So I'll throw my star washer in for good measure.

Frame went out today for powder coating and tinware also went out for spraying. Wheels are going to be completely black with the brake drum covers in satin silver.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on October 11, 2016, 05:15:00 PM
I'm going for black hubs. Chrome rims with mat silver centre and black lined to match the tank. The brake plates will be silver once i have modified them to centre brake shoes.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Lilyloodles on October 12, 2016, 03:17:38 PM
When I say brake drum covers I obviously meant brake plates Owen (sorry for the confusion if any given). Yes my hubs will also be black and plates silver, byt spokes and rims will also be black as original.

My tank as mentioned before has a couple of dings in it so i have decided not to re-chrome, but fill and spray satin silver. Is the pin-striping two parallel black lines of the same width or is one slightly wider than the other, and is one red and one black?

Does anyone have the correct design/pattern for the pin-striping on the petrol tank as I've seen some that the top stripes come down staight to the saddle and some that curve south before reaching the saddle. I've also seen the top stripes start at forks and others that curve arround top of top and don't reach forks.

Sorry if i've explained this poorly, but i know what i mean even if no-one else can understand!

Tony
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: timsdad on October 12, 2016, 05:06:49 PM
If you look in Pete's 2017 Calendar post, at the top of General Discussion, Tony, you'll see my 1940 BPN 836 and the tank on that is as close as you'll get to what the girder bikes were.

When I renovated this sad-looking old bike it had been hand painted black all over, I presume for the war time black-out, but the original silver was under the tank badges and also the red and black pin striping was still mostly there. I traced the stripes, took measurements and also matched the colours before blasting so I could reproduce it for my own satisfaction. The black stripe is quite wide and the dull red one is narrow. I can measure mine if you want to be picky!

Ray
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on October 12, 2016, 09:12:31 PM
Ray,

I can't see any signs of red lines on my 45 C11 tank.

Tony,
No confusions on my side.

Here is the paint lines for the back of the C11 tank. I can sketch the dimensions if you wish?
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on October 12, 2016, 09:16:54 PM
Headlight glass
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: timsdad on October 13, 2016, 07:50:48 AM
So we now know the immediate post-war Cs were not the same finish as the 1940 ones, Owen.

They had completely different tanks, with no oil compartment, so I suppose they also started afresh with the paintwork.


Ray
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on October 13, 2016, 01:26:33 PM
I asked the distributor doctor to see if he does a fixed price refurb. The answer is no as the condition vary's so much.
He did quote me the following: -
Adv/retard springs £14.50 per pair +vat
Cover clips £4.50 each +vat
No main shafts to sell.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Lilyloodles on October 13, 2016, 05:15:37 PM
Thanks once again guys for your help re petrol tank pin striping. I'm going with the two black stripe style as Owen's, but with an overall silver paint finish as chroming the tank will be too expensive due to dings etc.

Tony
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Lilyloodles on October 13, 2016, 05:41:05 PM
Owen,

That looks like a single black line pin-stripe and not double, is that correct?

thanks

Tony
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on October 13, 2016, 07:26:45 PM
There are some signs of double lines on a small part of the tank which follows the sales brochure for 1945-6
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on October 13, 2016, 09:40:21 PM
Here is a clearer picture. However, the double pin stripe may be a little wide?
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on October 16, 2016, 06:19:45 PM
Finally found a picture of the retaining clips on the fork shafts
I need to get some made for the 45 C10?
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Adam_R on October 16, 2016, 08:00:36 PM
are these clips just round wire?
roughly what diameter are they?
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on October 16, 2016, 09:50:11 PM
They are just round spring steel. Not sure of the exact size I will have to check.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: ianinglis on October 17, 2016, 07:08:06 AM
cant you use one of those wire type gudgeon pin circlips - just clip the turned end off???


ian
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on October 17, 2016, 09:07:11 AM
Finally found a picture of the retaining clips on the fork shafts
I need to get some made for the 45 C10?


This is another difference between the 39 model and the 40 onward models! In 39 the links were the type with a spigot on them #29-5160/5161, and just a long through bolt (bottom left in the illustration from the 39 parts list).

Regarding the spring rings! I just bought some from 'Hitchcocks' for the side check springs on my WD/CO. The shafts are around 9mm but I had to open them up a bit to get them on. They're a bit expensive at £2.35 each but probably easier than trying to get them made. Click on #18 in the illustration. http://www.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/partsbooks/pages/255/Front_Fork (http://www.hitchcocksmotorcycles.com/partsbooks/pages/255/Front_Fork)
Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on October 17, 2016, 09:18:35 AM
PS. I'm in the process of purchasing this 1940 WD C10 to go with my 39......Oh my Gawd! Not another shed extension. I'll start a fresh thread when the time comes.  Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: hoppe30 on October 17, 2016, 09:56:06 AM
Hi Ron,

Save for the primary chaincase it seems pretty complete. Forks and handlebars look correct.

Regards,
Leon
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on October 17, 2016, 11:18:39 AM
Hi Leon. The primary, dynamo, red spot and other parts are in a box. :)  I just need to find another illusive MT1130 tail lamp :-\ :-\Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on October 17, 2016, 12:35:58 PM
You kept that quiet. I might have been tempted  :o :D
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Lilyloodles on October 17, 2016, 12:44:10 PM
Great find Ron,
The forks look to be identical to our 45C's

Tony
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on October 17, 2016, 01:19:02 PM
I didn't find it Tony! The present owner knows me. Yes there are a host of differences between the 39 and 40 models.  But I don't want to take up anymore of Owens thread, as I said I'll start a thread in due course.

Owen do those rings look usable?

Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on October 17, 2016, 05:49:42 PM
Ron,

Yes they do look similar to the C ones.
Do you have the dimensions for the friction discs. the C ones are 1/2" ID, 2 1/2" OD, 3mm thickness?
If Hitchcocks have the WD/CO spares in stock it would be worth a visit to see how similar the parts are?

ID/OD now correct. Well done Ron.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Dstep on October 17, 2016, 06:27:46 PM
Wish I lived in the land of plenty, and could find these things laying about. :( :'(
I want a girder fork one also. :)

David
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on October 17, 2016, 07:03:57 PM
Ron,

Yes they do look similar to the C ones.
Do you have the dimensions for the friction discs. the C ones are 1/2" OD, 2 1/2" ID, 3mm thickness?
If Hitchcocks have the WD/CO spares in stock it would be worth a visit to see how similar the parts are?

If Hitchcock's didn't have them they state "Temporarily out of stock" where the price is. ..........Are you getting your ID and OD mixed up?  Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on October 17, 2016, 10:12:59 PM
I've corrected the ID/OD.
I got it in my head that the girder forks changed post war and not between 39 & 40.
Must up the medication.

Where are all these girder bikes hiding. I count about 5 or 6 this year alone?
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on October 18, 2016, 06:21:32 AM
I got it in my head that the girder forks changed post war and not between 39 & 40.

I think any new tooling by BSA post war would have been for the tele's not to modify the already out dated girders. One of the main changes was for the lubrication system which was carried on for later models. Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Lilyloodles on October 19, 2016, 01:11:55 PM
Owen,

I have a source who can supply friction disks for our 45C's at £5 each! What do you reckon?

Tony
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on October 19, 2016, 06:14:04 PM
Sound good. I did get some for a M20 and Triumph but the internal bores were too big.
Are they the Tufnell type or brake lining material?
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Lilyloodles on October 20, 2016, 12:59:45 PM
I will find out Owen and let you know

Tony
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on October 20, 2016, 08:13:04 PM
Draganfly have the 15-5051 Tuffnel discs for £2.40 inc Vat.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Lilyloodles on October 21, 2016, 10:17:19 AM
Owen,

Firstly I bought a set off of Draganfly and they were completely the wrong size (I suspect that they are M20). I complained and they said that this was the only size they have in stock, so why they insist on calling them C Series i don't know!

My contact has said that he is using modern day non asbestos brake lining!

Tony
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: hampshirebiker on October 21, 2016, 11:32:22 AM
Tony, that is a ridiculous excuse. They might as well have said they only keep steak & kidney pies.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Lilyloodles on October 21, 2016, 11:48:34 AM
I agree, interestingly their online catalogue lists them as same for B Series, which I would have thought were larger anyway. That said, they definately are the wrong size!

Tony
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on October 21, 2016, 12:35:16 PM
If they are the correct size. Then I'm interested in 2 pairs.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Lilyloodles on October 21, 2016, 02:44:03 PM
Owen,

I will order this afternoon and let you know when I have them.

thanks

Tony
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: timsdad on October 22, 2016, 09:16:12 AM
The only B series that had girder forks was the late '30s B20, B21 etc, and these had the same front end as the 1940 to 1946 C10, C11 and C12. Therefore Draganfly are correct in saying the Cs take the same friction damper discs as the Bs.

Ray
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on October 23, 2016, 05:04:12 PM
Well I've contacted Autocycle engineering to see if they have or can make me a new front mudguard for the 45 C11 as the original one is more of a colander than a mudguard.
I will be speaking to the guys at metal magic this week and should have a price for the rear chain guard for those that are interested in getting one made.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Lilyloodles on October 24, 2016, 03:31:18 PM
count me in on that one Owen

Tony
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: chaterlea25 on October 24, 2016, 06:00:31 PM
Hi Owen,
Have you tried "Renovation Spares" for a mudguard
The business has been taken over by a couple who attend quite a few autojumbles
I saw their contact details in a recent Classic Motorcycle mag

John
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on October 24, 2016, 06:49:51 PM
Hi Owen,
Have you tried "Renovation Spares" for a mudguard
The business has been taken over by a couple who attend quite a few autojumbles
I saw their contact details in a recent Classic Motorcycle mag

John

I think we've had this discussion already John. 'Renovation Spares' has been taken over by Mr & Mrs Simon Stephens who only run the business on a part time basis...... With not much chance of any fabrication. Best try 'Autocycle Engineering' or Terry Roberts who buys his blanks from them.  Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on October 24, 2016, 07:56:21 PM
Well I have an ask for all the 40 - 46 girder owners. What is the size of your front mudguard? Mine is
Overall length (Measured on the outer edge) 43"
Overall height (Measured from inner diameter to top of central ridge) 2"
Overall width (Measured from outer edge to outer edge) 5"
Overall diameter (Measured from wheel spindle centre to top of centre rib) 15"

Autocycle engineering only have one with a height of 1 5/8". I spoke to Terry today who is going to talk to Autocycle engineering and see if they have something without a centre rib that he can fabricate a centre rib on?
Terry is going to give me a price for making three rear chain guards from my original tomorrow. That's one for Tony, Ron and my 45 C10. If anyone else wants one let me know?

Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: chaterlea25 on October 24, 2016, 07:58:50 PM
Hi Ron
Quote
I think we've had this discussion already John
Ok Yes I remember now ::)

I dont think that Autocycle are interested in one off guards, ????
At least that was the impression I got when I was there earlier this year ????

John
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on October 25, 2016, 06:11:45 AM
Owen you can borrow my 1940 C10 guard for Terry to copy if you want, as long as it is fetched and carried by hand. I'm still getting over some recent bad activities with a courier firm >:( >:(  Ron

PS. let me know and I'll strip the black paint off first.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on October 25, 2016, 06:19:23 AM
Ron,
I think Terry is OK with my mudguard but just needs to get some more material of the right profile.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on October 25, 2016, 06:39:03 AM
Owen I just remembered anyway. Don't you have a decent pattern on your 45 C10?  Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on October 25, 2016, 06:53:30 AM
Yes,that's where I got the dimensions from and Terry has confirmed the C11 is the same (although he measured the height at 1 7/8". It's getting the material in the right profile. He is going to talk to Autocycle to see what he can do.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on October 25, 2016, 07:51:57 AM
OK I'll do some comparison measurements later. Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Dstep on October 25, 2016, 03:58:52 PM
I am curious, Owen. What do you mean "material in the right profile"?

David
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on October 25, 2016, 04:17:19 PM
I guess he means with this profile to make it easier to repair the rotted parts of his mudguard.....That's 'Fender' to you David ;D
Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Dstep on October 25, 2016, 04:35:20 PM
Now Ron, you know I have modified my vocabulary, when possible, to conform to the proper English nomenclature.  ;D Quite interesting what things are called in the UK. Learned another one yesterday, Sugar Soap, which is used-- oh well you know.

I was hoping that was what Owen meant. I would dearly love to acquire about two feet (600 mm) of that stock, if available, to make my rear fender (oops) mudguard. ;D

David

Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on October 25, 2016, 04:58:35 PM
Yes David! Please stop wasting your time on this motosickle nonsense! You'll need some of that 'Sugar Soap' for the paintwork of Mrs Dstep's new kitchen. Ron   


Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on October 25, 2016, 08:09:17 PM
Some fender (mudguard) manufacturers make profile blanks e.g. The right shape but not the correct ends. My mudguard needs about a foot of new material. So terry can chop out the crap and weld in the new bit. Apparently BSA used at least three mudguard manufacturers. MMM, SPEEDWELL & ??????
So I'm now trying to find a mudguard supplier with a 5" x 2" ribbed profile?
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on October 25, 2016, 11:19:36 PM
So I'm starting to prepare the forks for cleaning before painting and wondered if it's best to blank the holes with plugs before blasting or just screw a bolt or old grease nipplle to stop the grit from stacking the threads etc?
As I'm going to fit tapered rollers to the head stock I need to grind a 3 MM chamfer in the top frame cup housing to allow the tapered rollers to drop down enough. I bought the bearing set from Draganfly. However they are from SRM.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Dstep on October 26, 2016, 12:16:49 AM
Hi Owen,
When I was cleaning my forks a few weeks ago, I considered blasting them, but in the end just used a stiff (twisted) wire wheel. Didn't seem to take any longer, wasn't as messy, and they came out bright and clean. Used a fine wheel on the threads, and insides of the sliders.

If you have any luck finding material with your mudguard profile, I would appreciate it if you would email me their particulars so I could buy some.

David

Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on October 26, 2016, 08:31:13 PM
The girders are a bit more fiddley than the telescopic legs to clean. 
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: timsdad on October 27, 2016, 07:23:41 AM
I get most of my stuff blasted and on parts like forks and swinging arms I block all the holes up for protection. If they're also getting powder-coated then you have to use something that won't melt in the heat so plastic tube to protect shafts and threads is no good so I use old scrap copper pipe from plumbing jobs.

Plywood discs, cut out with a hole saw, fit nicely over big holes like a frame head stock and steel washers over the smaller holes to protect bushes and bearing holes in girders, hubs and the like does the job. Cheap bits of threaded rod from a builders' merchant or DIY store hold them all together and stubs of old bolts keep grease nipple threads clean.

It makes the job a lot easier if a bit of trouble is taken in preparation and you'll be glad you've tapped all those threads out in advance so the shiny new paint doesn't get scratched!

Ray
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Dstep on October 27, 2016, 02:58:03 PM
Sorry, forgot you had girders.
David
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on October 27, 2016, 05:22:43 PM
That will cost you a pasty when we eventually meet up!

Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: camman3 on October 27, 2016, 05:42:48 PM
Not sure how popular, or if pasties are even known, in the USA David.....but here is a link explaining what greedy Owen is after :D ;)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasty
I think he'd give his children away for a full English (breakfast) :-\ ;D

Graham
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on October 27, 2016, 06:17:25 PM
My eldest is going back to China to teach English for a year. Just hedging my bets when China takes over  ;D. I will do most things for food. I said MOST things!!!!!
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on October 28, 2016, 06:53:58 AM
Ray,
I forgot the heat process on the powder coat process. I will use old grease nippless, washers and threaded rod to block off the shaft bore.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: timsdad on October 28, 2016, 07:14:55 AM
I learnt the hard way several years ago, Owen, and it was great hassle cleaning molten blue plastic water pipe out of a long bush.

The reason I fit short stubs of bolts, with screwdriver slots cut in them, into threaded holes is that they're less likely to be an obstruction to the spray gun pattern and cause a bit of a run beside or behind them. Perfection is what we're constantly striving for!

Ray
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on October 28, 2016, 11:23:23 PM
I've just put the wheels in for rebuilding. Black hubs, chrome 20" rims, centre painted satin silver and lined in black to match the tank.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Dstep on October 30, 2016, 04:17:19 AM
I believe I have eaten some fine pasty(s) in Cornwall whence I was there, yummy. ;D
Duly noted that Owen is owed a pasty. :P

David
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on October 30, 2016, 07:08:07 AM
I'm sure I owe you a pint or two of fine ale for your generosity as well!
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on October 30, 2016, 07:16:20 AM
I've just put the wheels in for rebuilding. Black hubs, chrome 20" rims, centre painted satin silver and lined in black to match the tank.

I took my Autocycle wheels there on Wednesday. The beardy bloke in Jesus sandals who lives in the forest ???  Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on October 30, 2016, 07:25:53 AM
That's Dave at Brookwood. It's an alladin's cave to some and a scrap pile to my missus!
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on October 30, 2016, 08:04:40 AM
That's 'Brickwood'. I've known him for a long time from Kempton and the Autocycle club. I normally use Larry in the New Forest. But Dave is an Autocycle expert and will get over some problems I have with the spoke wire guage.  Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on October 30, 2016, 09:03:52 AM
Auto spell strikes again.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on January 08, 2017, 06:21:33 PM
Iv'e been struggling to undo the oil tank cap for months. I tried soaking it form the outside and the inside. I finally decided to heat the cap and surrounding area to free it. However, I forgot it was a two part cap and basically de-soldered the cap top. I could at least get a decent grip on the inner section without ruining the knurling. Eventually after wrestling with the tank and cap for an hour it came apart. I can now get the cap part chromed and not worry about the threads being ruined.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on January 08, 2017, 06:29:51 PM
On the rear brake plate I picked up the other day I noticed it had two holes in the teardrop section. One of which has been badly filled. II fitted that brake plate to my C the hole would be at the top and not at the bottom as the original brake plate is?
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on January 08, 2017, 06:48:04 PM
I think you will have to clean up that cap and solder it together before plating, otherwise the heat might bugger up the new chrome. Or find another one.  Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Dstep on January 08, 2017, 07:52:05 PM
Well, Owen, any joy with the pattern mudguard material? I could use a bit to fashion the lower rear half for my C11.

David
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on January 08, 2017, 10:30:45 PM
I haven't found any with the correct form, so have had to have my front mudguard cut and shunted in the middle section. Keeping the outer parts that were OK.
Can yo measure the width and height of the one you need as someone may have a piece to suite your needs?
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Dstep on January 09, 2017, 12:10:54 AM
My best approximation is that it is 1-7/8" high in the middle, and 5 to 5-1/8" wide. Hard to tell exactly as it is slightly deformed, in and out, along the full length. If you have satisfied your needs, don't worry with mine, as I have several months of work to do before I need it, and something is bound to turn up.

David

Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on January 16, 2017, 07:09:27 PM
Unfortunately I had to get Drew to cut the middle out of my front mudguard and remake the middle section. I'm still looking just in case i can find a bit for you.
I just have to clean it up and fit the front number plate mountings. I might try electrolysis to get rid of the rust?

Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Dstep on January 17, 2017, 03:43:06 AM
Hi Owen,
Thanks for keeping your eyes open for me.
Might I suggest Muriatic acid, or spirits of salt in the UK. Works a treat, all bright and clean with no muss or fuss. Do get a chemical respirator though, or put a box fan to one side to clear the fumes.

David
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: ianinglis on January 17, 2017, 08:41:06 AM
if i did that to my bike there would be nothing left ;D ;D


ian
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Dstep on January 17, 2017, 05:52:47 PM
Only eats the rust Ian, so your's would be OK, but looks great as it is. I also use it to remove chrome plate. If you submerge the part in the acid, and place 300 series stainless steel bits in with the part, it plates out of solution, with the chrome being deposited on the stainles.

David
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on February 02, 2017, 06:41:45 PM
Well Two parcels in the post today!

The first was the footrests from Andy for my 45 C10. Many thanks, a bit of heat and a big bar and they will be sorted.

The second was the new girder springs (1940-46 only) I've had made. They look fantastic. I have a spare one over and above the one for Lillyloads if anyone is interested?

Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on February 12, 2017, 12:44:31 PM
I've been looking at the hub bearings and wondering if i can convert to taper, ball or thrust rollers (i will start a seperate thread to discuss this further). I did notice the earlier hubs seem to have a flange which may be to keep the grease away from the brake shoes. The felt cups seem to be painted instead of the plated versions on later models.

Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on February 16, 2017, 12:57:39 PM
Well I picked up my C11 wheels yesterday and they look fantastic. Black hubs, Chrome rims with a mat silver centre and black pin stripe. Yes I know they are not standard bet they will match the rest of the bike.
Now i just need to finish off the rest of the bike?
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on February 16, 2017, 01:46:13 PM
Where's the picture? Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on February 16, 2017, 05:51:20 PM
Iv'e gone for the bling option. Stainless spokes and chrome rims so I don't have to clean them so much!!!
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: MilitaryRon on February 16, 2017, 08:59:29 PM
Bloody lovely! Forget all about 'Patina' for once in your life and make something look new again and then put your own patina on it over the next 20 years.   :)Ron
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Dstep on February 17, 2017, 02:44:01 PM
Very nice indeed, Owen. I'm jealous. ;D

David
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: chaterlea25 on February 17, 2017, 08:09:18 PM
Hi David and All,
Regarding Vintage mudguards, I saw a link to this outfit in Australia on another Forum
http://www.vintagesteel.com.au/ (http://www.vintagesteel.com.au/)

HTH
John
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Dstep on February 18, 2017, 03:24:17 PM
Thanks, John. That is some operation, real craftsmen. Obviously directed to the well-heeled restorers of high-end motorcycles. I'd probably swoon at the prices. :o

David
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on March 03, 2017, 06:17:21 PM
I've just picked up a Coker 300x20 rear tyre from Northhants tyres and managed to get a 10% discount. Luckily I had a quick look at the tyre as they had given me a front instead of a rear. i did  notice the Coker tyres are made in Vietnam?
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: Owen on March 12, 2017, 01:03:01 PM
I was just measuring the primary drive spacers for Jeff and noticed the flinger to bearing spacer had a shoulder on it (see pic) which fits into the radius on the bearing inner ring. On the other engines I have built they have always had a plain spacer without the shoulder. It does line up correctly!

Can anyone measure their spacer to see how thick theirs is?

Mine is 0.310"to the bearing mating face and 0.3282 if i include the radius. Inner diameter 0.988", Outer diameter 1.309"

The outside of the bearing to the cush drive spacer is 0.087" thick. Inner diameter 0.983", Outer diameter 1.307" But I will check to make sure it lines up with the clutch and may machine a replacement to suite.
Title: Re: 1945 girder C11
Post by: ianinglis on March 12, 2017, 01:34:23 PM
i would suggest that the spacer has been spinning and the "shoulder" would not have been there many moons ago????



ian