Author Topic: '54 C11G Scrutiny Invitational  (Read 1124 times)

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Online Tman

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Re: '54 C11G Scrutiny Invitational
« Reply #60 on: January 13, 2021, 10:33:00 pm »
You mean the rotor? Shouldn't be any current entering the stator anyway. The juice from a DVM or AVO when testing continuity etc is too little to worry about.

Online Vreagh

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Re: '54 C11G Scrutiny Invitational
« Reply #61 on: January 14, 2021, 09:47:58 am »
I did say a meter wouldn't cause harm, but he was talking about energising the coils to change polarity thinking he had a dynamo.

Online timsdad

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Re: '54 C11G Scrutiny Invitational
« Reply #62 on: January 15, 2021, 10:02:45 am »
Now for the lights, Mr reP, as you should have got your head round the charging and ignition wiring by now.

You take a feed for the light switch from the input connection of the ignition switch, or from its source if the switches are in different places on the bike, to power the lights. A wire is then taken from the side light feed on the switch to the rear light and another to the front side light. Another wire is then connected between the switch outlet for the head lamp (the universal Brit colour for this is usually blue) and the centre contact of the dipswitch. A wire (blue and white) is taken from the outlet contact of the dipswitch to the main beam of the headlight. This should make contact when the dip switch is in its 'down' position. Another wire (blue/red) is taken from the other dip[switch position (live when it's 'up') to the dip beam. An earth wire needs taking from the head lamp bulb holder to the earth connection inside the headlamp shell and then onwards down to the same earthing point that the battery and rectifier is earthed onto. A separate earth wire needs taking forward from the rear lamp to the same frame earth bolt.

If you want a speedo light, this is fed from the blue wire between the light switch and the dip switch. You will, no doubt, have to do a bit of juggling on the bench with a battery and test light to find out which contact(s) on the light switch feed the rear light and the side light if you want the front side light to go off when the head lamp comes on, with the rear lamp remaining on all the time. You can do this on the old Lucas switches with the little link wires between the switch contacts and can sort them out by studying the wiring diagrams for the switches. However, I find it easier to just play with a test light and slave battery on the bench to see which switch numbers are which and make notes on a scrap envelope. You may find it easier to just have the rear lamp and the front side light both on in both the side light position and the head light position on the switch.

A feed wire needs taking from a similar source as the switch feeds (between battery and rectifier) to a terminal screw (or spade) on the hooter and then on from the other hooter screw to the horn button. This should complete the circuit, so the horn farts, when the horn button is pressed to earth on the handlebars. Another feed wire is taken (from a similar source to the hooter) to feed the brake light switch. Another wire from this switch (energised when the switch contacts are closed) is taken to the brake light wire in the rear lamp

On my Negative Earth bikes I tend to use black wires for all the earths and red wires for all the live wires direct from the battery - this, hopefully, confuses me less. I use white and red wires for ignition feed to coil etc, white and black for the low tension between coil and points, the blues for the lights, as mentioned, and perhaps red and black for the horn and brake light feeds and perhaps blue/black for the horn. I'm sure you can sort out your own colours using what you've got handy.

When you're happy with this bird's nest of wiring, it needs taping together with a couple of turns of PVC tape at all the junctions of the different cables, making a note of their routes round the frame and head stock. It can all then be removed from the bike to tuck it neatly into plastic or cotton-woven sleeving, maybe with the ends taped or shrink-wrapped. It largely depends on your level of expertise and what you are prepared to spend. As I feed it through the sleeving, I'll make little slits so I can pull the odd wires to the coil, horn etc out through the sleeving so the new loom looks like a map of the London Underground

I hope this is clear enough and may help others who are thinking about rewiring their C and have a foggy brain where electrickery is involved.


Ray
Just a motorcyclist.

Offline repete

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Re: '54 C11G Scrutiny Invitational
« Reply #63 on: January 15, 2021, 04:02:01 pm »
Gimme a bit to digest this!
pete ("repete")

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Offline repete

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Re: '54 C11G Scrutiny Invitational
« Reply #64 on: January 15, 2021, 04:09:36 pm »
I pulled ALL wiring last night with exception of "sub harnesses"... Dip switch, rear brake switch and taillight.  Everything else was removed.
This morning I ordered a variety of wiring, connectors and wrap as well as a new coil, spark plug lead and cap.
I've also ordered an LED British Pre-Focus Headlight Bulb.
Tail/Brake Light, Gauge and Parking Light bulbs will be ordered next week whereas I'll be purchasing bulbs for several of my other bikes on the same order.
Currently I'm at work and at the moment it's interfering with my personal stuff!  I hate it when that happens!  So, I'll need to read and digest this tonight.
As I've said previously.... your time and guidance is VERY much appreciated!
pete ("repete")

"We are mere custodians of mechanical things. Our job is to care for them, improve them and pass them on to others.” - Peter Egan

Online timsdad

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Re: '54 C11G Scrutiny Invitational
« Reply #65 on: January 16, 2021, 09:13:29 am »
If you have an ammeter fitted, Mr reP, or anyone else, the wiring needs slightly modifying to keep everything simple and working as it should.

When wiring in an ammeter, the DC charging wire from the rectifier needs to go up to the right-hand connection on the ammeter and a wire taken from the other ammeter connection back down to the battery positive (on a negative-earth bike). This is in place of the direct feed described in the earlier post.

The ignition switch and light switch feeds are taken from this right hand ammeter connection, the + side, and the brake light and horn feeds need to be taken from the other side of the ammeter, or somewhere in the wire between ammeter and battery. This is so their heavy current drain will not damage the ammeter or the switches, as they're coming direct off the battery and not through anything else.

If you're re-wiring your bike in its original Positive Earth, you just change the wires round on the battery, rectifier and coil and everything else remains the same. If your ammeter shows a charge when you turn the lights on, without the engine running, then you need to just change all the ammeter + connections to the - side and the - connections to the +, therefore just reversing the flow through the gauge.


Ray
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Online camman3

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Re: '54 C11G Scrutiny Invitational
« Reply #66 on: January 16, 2021, 09:28:13 am »
And when you have all that, put an inline fuse in the positive battery feed, with probably a 15amp fuse in it :-\.....will limit any blue smoke!
If you follow Ray's excellent advice, you'll get there....and enjoy it. :).....certainly more than me currently trying to get my head round CAD software ::)
Graham
1957 C12
In sunny (sometimes) Christchurch, Dorset, UK

Online timsdad

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Re: '54 C11G Scrutiny Invitational
« Reply #67 on: January 17, 2021, 10:10:25 am »
Sorry, I forgot to mention the fuse, thanks Graham. I knew I'd forget something!

I usually just bridge a simple cartridge fuse holder in the battery earth lead, right next to the battery. Whether it's positive earth or negative, this will cover any eventualities of an accidental short circuit.


Ray
Just a motorcyclist.

Online Tman

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Re: '54 C11G Scrutiny Invitational
« Reply #68 on: January 17, 2021, 11:26:23 am »
Too right, always in the earth connection and as low a rating as possible. 15A is too high IMO, I prefer a 10A, and even that's too high if you don't ride at night or ever use the headlamp.

Offline repete

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Re: '54 C11G Scrutiny Invitational
« Reply #69 on: January 19, 2021, 02:16:57 pm »
Absolutely agree on the fuse and will introduce it to my wiring layout between the battery and the switch.  Just so happens I've got one or two in my spare parts collection from past projects.  I'm not great at electrical but I do know enough that with the limited energy users on this bike plus the introduction of LED's and having a brand new wiring system that there'll be very little power draw.  I'm going to stick with a 10amp fuse.
I'm still working out the layout of my wiring based on Timsdad's patient guidance and I have needed items on order (wire, bullets, connectors) that haven't arrived yet.
pete ("repete")

"We are mere custodians of mechanical things. Our job is to care for them, improve them and pass them on to others.” - Peter Egan

Online timsdad

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Re: '54 C11G Scrutiny Invitational
« Reply #70 on: January 19, 2021, 04:19:55 pm »
It's less complicated to put the fuse in the battery earth lead, in the Negative lead before it gets to the frame bolt. It covers everything then, including the horn and brake light.


Ray
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Re: '54 C11G Scrutiny Invitational
« Reply #71 on: January 19, 2021, 06:23:05 pm »
And if you want to go OTT, you could fuse individual circuit feeds ???.....but one 10 amp fuse will probably prevent bike bursting into flames. ;)
Only advantage of separate fuses is easier fault finding, and device protection, but minimal on a simple circuit and devices fitted to a humble C.
Graham
1957 C12
In sunny (sometimes) Christchurch, Dorset, UK

Online Owen

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Re: '54 C11G Scrutiny Invitational
« Reply #72 on: January 19, 2021, 07:02:44 pm »
On a more complicated circuit I would agree with multiple fuses. Given that its simple to remove an device from the circuit to get you home, you just need to have enough fuses to overcome the problem (or a nail)  ;D
1940 C12 (350cc)
1945 C10 & C11
1953 C10 & C11

Offline repete

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Re: '54 C11G Scrutiny Invitational
« Reply #73 on: January 19, 2021, 07:22:16 pm »
Good Afternoon!

Graham - I don't know what OTT is.  I will now go hang my head in shame!  :-[

Update to where I'm at:

I had drawn up (a couple of times) my own wiring schematic based on the info. Timsdad has been relaying here and other feedback he's given me.  To avoid bogging this discussion down I had it looked over off the thread for glaring errors and where I went astray was at the wiring of the switch.
I’ve learned that the power supply for the brake light and horn should be taken from the battery feed at the same point it is connected to the switch or even just before so as not to put any unnecessary loads on the switch.
I can easily correct that before I begin running wires.
Another correction to my intended wiring plan was the way I had run wiring to the Parking Light and Taillight in an attempt to have them turn on in the “P” position of the switch and then remain on when the “H” position of the switch is activated for the Headlight and Gauge light.  I don't really care if the Parking Light stays on or goes off when the Headlight is activated, but the Taillight certainly needs to remain on.
I figured out a solution but I won’t bother showing it because I am told that the switch – when properly wired – will accomplish what’s required. I over complicated it.
So now here’s the new dilemma.  After about an hour of researching old technical threads on C11G and PRS8 switch wiring I’ve come up with basically nothing.  Am I as computer challenged as I am wiring challenged?  :-\  Geez.
The most promising thread I found was this one…

https://bsac10c11c12.co.uk/smf/technical/wiring-lighting-and-ignition-switch-c11/msg100181/#msg100181


It looks like my answer may be within a link that is posted in the thread, but just like the original poster I can’t get it to open.  Says something along the lines of “…not allowed to access this section”

Then I found this thread which seems to have been “dissected” for lack of a better term.  Here's a sampling of the verbiage I am seeing.  No links.  No pictures.  Hard to follow.  I have actually found numerous threads like this.
 
PRS8 Switch wiring
« on: November 29, 2008, 11:18:00 am »
•   Quote
Some illustraions show the PRS8 internal wiring for a C12 with Terminals 5 and 6
conmnected.Sometimes not. What difference does it make? Also is it
 possible to rewire the switch so that all alternator coils charge all the time?
 


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I’m truly doing my best to utilize the resources on the forum without being an additional bother to those that have been putting in time to help me, but after an hour of dead ends I’m hoping someone knows of a good link to a quality thread that actually directly addresses the switch wiring for a C11G.
If not, I will somehow overcome this latest obstacle but it’ll most likely be through trial & error in the shop vs. searching from thread to thread.

Thanks all!

Footnote: Still looking while I can and I found this.

https://bsac10c11c12.co.uk/smf/wiring-diagrams-91/lucas-1956-c12-(ohv)-wiring-diagram/

It's for a C12, but I'm pretty certain switches are the same.  If that's the case, did I just hit pay dirt?
« Last Edit: January 19, 2021, 07:58:35 pm by repete »
pete ("repete")

"We are mere custodians of mechanical things. Our job is to care for them, improve them and pass them on to others.” - Peter Egan

Online camman3

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Re: '54 C11G Scrutiny Invitational
« Reply #74 on: January 19, 2021, 10:22:49 pm »
Good evening....OTT is "over the top" as in unnecessary.
Here is the c11g wiring diagram
https://bsac10c11c12.co.uk/smf/wiring-diagrams-91/lucas-c11g-wiring-diagram/

I'm mentally exhausted here, struggling to get my old head around CAD software ::).....very frustrating when you think you have "got it" only to find you haven't :'(
Oh well, have another go tomorrow. Goodnight
Graham
1957 C12
In sunny (sometimes) Christchurch, Dorset, UK